Milt Carl

Liebreich: My goal in interviewing Milt is to discuss with him his relationship, his leadership, and his activities with the three major institutions in Portland: Congregation Shaarie Torah, Mittleman Jewish Community Center (which includes Men’s Camp and B’nai B’rith Camp), and Cedar Sinai Park. But today, let’s start with your history and growing up in Portland as a Jew. Then we’ll move into Congregation Shaarie Torah and we’ll get the other things another day. 
CARL: Okay.

Liebreich: All right. Talk to me about when you were a kid in Portland. Were you born in Portland?
CARL: I was born in Portland. I was born on Third and College. I was born in the house because my grandmother was afraid that my mother should go to have a baby in the hospital. As a matter of fact, my mother had… Dasha had six children–four that lived.

Liebreich: Wait a minute. This was your mom?
CARL: That’s right.

Liebreich: She had four children. 
CARL: She had four children that lived, right. I have an older sister and a brother. 

Liebreich: This is Eva.
CARL: It’s me and then there’s my sister Eva Walleston.

Liebreich: And Sid was your older brother?
CARL: Sid was my older brother, my only brother.

Liebreich: And then there was one more.
CARL: My sister Bess, who died when she was 29 years old. She was eight years older than me. She died of leukemia. We grew up on Third and College, in a Jewish neighborhood. It was across the street from the Robison Home and we lived there until about 1932 or ’33. Then we moved up to Park and Jackson. 

Liebreich: How old were you?
CARL: I think I was around eight years old when we moved up to Park and Jackson.

Liebreich: You were born when?
CARL: I was born in 1925. Anyway, as far as the people … I don’t know if you want to know the people that were involved in the area, or what have you. I was a block away from Rabbi Fain, who was the spiritual leader of Shaarie Torah. I had neighbors across the street, down the block, what have you: the Saltzmans, the Meshers. Irv Rotenberg lived in an apartment down the street.

Liebreich: Were you friends then?
CARL: Oh, yes. [There were also] people by the name of Olmansky. Harry Glickman lived a couple blocks away. Al Popick lived a couple blocks away. It was a real Jewish neighborhood, as far as that goes. The butcher shop was a block away. I remember when the Lincoln Theater started.

Liebreich: How many butcher shops?
CARL: Well, in those days there was the butcher shop on Third and Lincoln and there was a – Brill had a butcher shop on First Street, just north of Arthur Street. I don’t remember the street. Then at one time, a fellow by the name of Shore had a butcher shop, which was south of Arthur St. The butcher on Third Street was owned jointly by Marvin Schnitzer’s father and Ben Jacobson’s father. You’ve heard of Ben Jacobson? His father, they were partners in that butcher shop. As a matter of fact, I’m told that Simon Director at one time was a butcher, but I don’t know where. There was a mikvah, which was across from the butcher shop. They had plaques with supporters and my uncle’s name was on there, what have you.

Liebreich: Where were the plaques with the supporters? On the mikvah?
CARL: Right. In the mikvah.

Liebreich: Did you mother go to the mikvah?
CARL: You know… donated, like so many people, what have you…

Liebreich: Did your mother go to…? 
CARL: To my knowledge, [she] never went to the mikvah. But we had a kosher home, all the time. When mother was alive and had her own home, she was kosher. In fact, as kids, we never ate out very much, we didn’t eat out. I don’t think I had pork until I went into the service, you know. We went to Shattuck grade school.

Liebreich: What was that like?
CARL: It was great. It was kind of a mixed school: a lot of Jewish kids, a lot of … some Orientals, some Japanese, some Chinese. In those days, there was a terrible situation in the schools between the Japanese and the Chinese, because the Japanese-Chinese War was going on and deep hatred. I never felt personally any antisemitism, per se, among kids. The antisemitism took place in the organizations, clubs, golf clubs, what have you. That was very definitely.

Liebreich: Back up. While you were in high school, were there clubs?
CARL: Yes, there were some clubs. The only club that I ever belonged to… there was a Hi-Y and some other clubs, but the only club that I ever got involved in, as far as that goes, was a Jewish club, was the AZA. We had a club called the Cardinals that used to meet at the Center. We were eight, nine, ten years old. You know, we were all Polly’s kids. Harry Policar was the athletic director and he was one of the most fantastic people that ever lived, because he didn’t care anything about money. He only cared about whatever, and he taught kids: “You don’t use S— words, you don’t use F— words.” There was no such thing as language like that that was used.

Liebreich: So you hung at the Center. You didn’t get involved in the politics of Shattuck School. You weren’t involved in Shattuck School?
CARL: No, I never got involved with Shattuck, as far as politics, or at Lincoln High. Some of the guys did, you know. Some guys ran for student body president. Before I got there, Bernie Shevach was the student body president. I don’t remember [unintelligible] ran but I don’t think he got it. I think Babe Puziss (we called him Babe), Irv Puziss, they were involved, a lot more involved. Of course, they were also involved in athletics. They played basketball for Lincoln and some baseball. Hal Saltzman was quite a baseball player. I personally, on a personal basis, I worked. From the time I was eight years old, I was selling papers.

Liebreich: Did you have a corner assigned?
CARL: I had different corners all over town. You name it. I’d go into the Multnomah Hotel, the Embassy Suites – I had that at one time. That was when News Telegrams were two cents and Journals were three cents. I had the American Bank Building, which is still standing, right across from the Portland Hotel. I had the Pacific Building.

Liebreich: How did you get assigned those spots?
CARL: It’s not a matter of assigned. You buy them.

Liebreich: Oh, explain that. I didn’t know that.
CARL: Well, we used to sell a corner for like $5 or something.

Liebreich: Who’d you buy it from?
CARL: From whoever, the guy [who] had it before.

Liebreich: Who’d he buy it from?
CARL: I don’t know exactly. Maybe some of them were assigned. I don’t remember. My first boss was Abe Blank. He was the street circulator for the News Telegram. Then when he tried to – when the News Telegram went out of business, I don’t remember if he went to the Oregonian or the Journal. There were two Jewish circulators: Abe Blank and Leo Dorfman. Leo Dorfman is an uncle to Arden Shenker. 

Liebreich: He was an uncle to Phil Blank too, wasn’t he?
CARL: No… I’m not sure, but I know he was an uncle to Arden Shenker and to Leonard Goldberg. He’s in that family. Now whether it’s on his mother’s side… I think it’s on his mother’s side. So, you know, we grew up during a period of Depression.

Liebreich: Yes. Talk about that. Where did your dad work?
CARL: My dad had a clothing store.

Liebreich: Where?
CARL: Well, at the time I can remember, he had a clothing store on SW First and Main. From there he moved to SW Third and Stark.

Liebreich: Men’s clothing?
CARL: Men’s clothing. The store on First and Main was called Carl’s Working Man’s Store. When he moved to Third and Stark it became an Army and Navy store. There’s a fellow that was 90 recently that worked for my dad. 

Liebreich: Who’s that?
CARL: Dave Ostomil.

Liebreich: Dave Ostomil? I know Dave Ostomil.
CARL: You ask Dave sometime about my dad. My dad just thought he was great and Dave thought of him like a [role] model. My dad was a very kind person. And Sol Sax worked for my dad, you know. Judy and Bev’s father worked for my dad. In those days, money was very tight. My dad worked very long hours and everybody tried to pitch in. My brother had a route. Everybody tried to pitch in to help. My mother’s allowance I think used to be $5 a week, and she never always got the $5. You know? 

So when I think about hard times now, I have to laugh, because I’m… the point is this – I’m not trying to belabor the point of the Depression – but the point is, we didn’t know things were rough. We knew… we learned to work. We knew that work… we had to work, that’s all. As far as poverty or anything like that, we always had food on the table. There was always for somebody else that came from the old country or what have you. There are people in town here, I can’t remember all the names. They came from the same town as my mother; that the first place they went to was my grandmother’s house. In fact, Esther Wayne’s family all came from the same area. The Tobins came from the same area.

Liebreich: Back up. Tell me, who was your grandmother?
CARL: My grandmother’s name was Anna Goldstein. I don’t remember what it was in the old country. 

Liebreich: Was there a grandpa?
CARL: My grandfather was Frank. My grandfather died – all I remember of him [was that] he had a white beard – and he died in about 1931 or ’32. He was a traveler [laughs]. He’d leave the family in Europe and go to South America; he’d go here and he’d go there. 

My grandmother had four children. The oldest one was my uncle Harry; that’s Bill and Morrie and Edith’s father. Another brother was Alex, and he was the one who married my aunt Mary that we talk[ed] about. He died when he was 46 in 1940. My mother had a sister who died in her early 20s, probably in the ‘30s sometime. I don’t remember that much about her. Then there was my mother. But as far as cousins are concerned, my mother’s cousins were the Levy’s – Joe and Elsie Levy. Their father and my grandmother were brother and sister. Lisofsky was their name. Joe had one brother and two sisters. They’re all gone, you know. But, I mean, that was my mother’s family.

Liebreich: So did your father take members of the family in to work in the store?
CARL: Yes, after we got old enough, you know.

Liebreich: What about the brothers-in-law and the cousins? Did they work in the store?
CARL: Well, the only ones that… actually, when the war came along and basically we’re all in school. I was a senior in high school and my brother was a first year at Oregon State, I think.

Liebreich: Sid?
CARL: Sid. My sister Bess, my older sister, she worked at Meier & Frank [or] Lipman and Wolfe; I don’t remember. Eva was just a kid. She was a teenager. We never really came into the business at all until after the war, because my brother went into the service, I went into the service, and my mother worked with my dad. He hired help.

Liebreich: Your mother worked in the store?
CARL: With my dad. He needed, you know, whatever. Not regular, but she helped out. I don’t ever remember working on First Street, but on Third Street he had the Army and Navy Store. That building is still standing there. It’s called Cameron Books now. It’s a block from Mothers. I know that whole neighborhood, you know, the Davis Building with the Davis family and all that. I went to grade school with Ruthie Sheinin. She was in my class. Danny Gaff, before he moved to the east side, Bennie Director…

Liebreich: So tell me about AZA. All you guys – 
CARL: We were in Cardinals, and from Cardinals you went into AZA. The AZA started, I think it was when you were 14 years old – from 14 to 21 in those days. I was active. I was Aleph Gadol when I was, uhh… I think I was the youngest Aleph Gadol they had ever had. I was either 15 or 16 when I was Aleph Gadol. You know the conventions, the usual thing between Seattle and Portland? I have friends today from Seattle – we met in AZA, as far as that goes. My sister-in-law, Charlene, we used to have a sweetheart ball, she was the sweetheart of AZA. Ruthie Sheinin was the sweetheart of AZA. In those days it was good. 

Liebreich: Did you meet Cissie while you were in high school?
CARL: No. What happened is that, in her particular case, she was like family, because my uncle married Mary, her aunt. So, you know, it was kind of a thing that uhh… my aunt Mary always wanted us to get together, whatever. Alan was my oldest and best friend. So, I knew her, as you know. 

Liebreich: All your life.
CARL: All my life. 

Liebreich: Okay, a couple of things. The war – did you go into the service?
CARL: I started at University of Oregon in 1942 in September and I pledged the Sammy house. I don’t remember who was there. Irv Puziss, Irv Rotenberg, Irv Potter – who later got killed in Europe – Stan Bachman, Leon Benveniste. These are names that moved away. Steve Cohen. I can’t remember them all now. Saul Lesser, who lives in New York somewhere. I started [at] the Sammy house and I went one semester and I got itchy. I was still 17 years old. I came home from school on break and I said to my folks, “I want to join. They didn’t want to allow me to join, so I cried enough so they finally agreed. 

So in January 1943, I went into the service. I was in the Navy for 39 months and never saw action. But I was in Australia, I was in Okinawa and different places, and actually came back here. I went to the V-12 program at Willamette University for a year. But when you think about now, you know, kids [are] overenthusiastic. Finally, all my friends, practically all of them, were drafted later in the year. Harry and a fellow named Bob Buchwach was in our class. The Buchwach family, the one that lived in Pittsburgh. He died also. They’re all gone. 

Liebreich: Bob – what’s his name? Buchwald?
CARL: Buchwach. You know Lew Buchwach?

Liebreich: Yes, I know him.
CARL: His younger brother. Everybody went into the service, most of them ended up in… I was lucky. I didn’t have tough duty. But Alan was in the service for 34 months and he was overseas for 32 months: New Guinea, Japan, Okinawa. My brother was in the SeaBees. He was in a typhoon one time and he lost all his clothes [laughs]. Different guys; Harry was in Europe; Irv was in Europe. We were spread out all over the place.

Liebreich: How do you think the war affected people like your folks, who were here, in terms of antisemitism?
CARL: Well, I don’t think there was a… yes, yes, we knew what was going on in Germany, and all that. That wasn’t a secret. But as far as far as being discriminated, my folks, my dad never had the wherewithal and he wouldn’t do it, wouldn’t belong anyway. He did belong to the Knights of Pythias; they were accepted there. And he was a governor of the State or something, and he had a high office. But B’nai B’rith Lodge was very strong then. We had two lodges in Portland. 

Liebreich: Yes, talk about that.
CARL: As a matter of fact, I still pay dues to B’nai B’rith Lodge. There’s probably over 40 members in Portland that still pay dues. 

Liebreich: What role did the B’nai B’rith Lodge play? This was during the Second World War, right? 
CARL: Well, the B’nai B’rith Lodge – as a matter of fact, the B’nai B’rith Lodge owned the Jewish Community Center. They owned the building and they gave it to the Jewish Community, as far as that goes. They were a very strong, very strong organization. They were active in [the] Anti-Defamation [League], which they’re still very active. From the AZA days, we had some fellows that were – they used to go conventions and they’d have all these oratory contests and debate contests and Portland used to knock them dead. We took national awards – Sol Stern, David Fain, Alvin Klein, who later became a rabbi. They were all national champions in either oratory or debate. They were outstanding.

Liebreich: Back up. The Holocaust – what effect do you think the Holocaust had on Portland Jewry or on your family?
CARL: I don’t believe that… see, our family did not originate in Germany. Our family is all from Russia. Now, the reason our families left Russia was because of the Czar. There was a lot of antisemitism and many people, including my mother’s family, they smuggled across the border. One of my uncles carried a samovar, which is an old – they make tea, hot tea. You’ve probably seen them. I’m surprised that your mother never had one. The samovars were very popular. Smuggled across [unintelligible].

Liebreich: Your father was born in – 
CARL: My mother and dad didn’t meet until they came to America. See, my mother came here when she was six or seven years old. My dad was 17 years old. My grandfather – my father’s father – had died in Russia. In Russia he was considered quite well-to-do. He was in the lumber business and my dad went to all-day cheder, yeshiva, you know, what have you. He [the grandfather] died in 1906. Then in 1911, or just prior to 1911, probably in 1908 or ’09 – my dad had two brothers who had served in the Russian War [with Japan?] and hey they were going to be called up again, so they left. That’s the reason we got to Portland. Then my dad came with his mother and a sister. They came in about 1911. My dad was about 18 years old. He was born in 1893. My mother came before that, 1904-1905.

Liebreich: So you don’t think the Holocaust had a pertinent effect on your family or your community?
CARL: Not really, because, like I say, none of them were in Germany. In fact, the German Jews, as far as that goes, they were probably the first group that came to Portland. You check out the records at Temple Beth Israel; I’m sure they were mostly all German Jews. But then, after 1933, between I would say probably 1933 and 1938-39, you had a lot of German people who came to Portland. Whether they had relatives here or some connection, I suppose… 

Liebreich: They didn’t integrate into your community?
CARL: Well, yes they did. Yes they did. As a matter of fact, they used to have a German club and they used to meet at the Jewish Community Center, as far as that goes. And when you say integrate, they were not from the same grouping as those that came in 1850 or 1860 or 1870 or whatever. It was different group entirely and I would say probably, Miriam Greenstein could give you an idea, because she’s one of those that’s here, that came… 

Liebreich: She came in the ‘40s.
CARL: Was it in the ‘40s? Well, she might have come from Shanghai.

Liebreich: No, no, actually she went to Sweden and she came from Sweden.
CARL: Okay, well some of them got out and some went to Shanghai, some went Sweden, some went to France. 

Liebreich: Inge, Inge Hamburger. That was later.
CARL: Yes, but that’s a different group. They were integrated. I mean, when you talk about antisemitism, it’s very interesting, because we ourselves are also anti. We grew up at a period of time when Sephardic Jews did not attend Ashkenazic [events?]. 

Liebreich: You want to talk about that a little bit? Explain that. 
CARL: Well, Sephardic Jews and the Ashkenazis were always at each other’s throats. I think, probably, Ashkenazis thought they were better than Sephardic Jews, for whatever reasons.

Liebreich: You know why?
CARL: I have no idea why. But I know when a person – when an Ashkenazi fellow tried taking out a Sephardic girl, the family didn’t like it. In fact, Vic and Toinette, you know, you wouldn’t want a nicer couple or nicer parents on both sides. So that passed, thank God. The same thing it used to be – the German Jews used to look down on the Russian Jews and it took many years before the barrier was broken. One of the people I think helped break the barrier were people like Moe Tonkon, Samuel B. Weinstein They were the first really Russian Jews that got in Temple Beth Israel and they became outstanding citizens. But I’m just saying, in those days, you know, they looked down on us. 

Liebreich: You think this was a universal situation, or do you think it was just local?
CARL: Oh, I think it was universal.

Liebreich: Universal?
CARL: Oh, absolutely. As a matter of fact, I know. 

Liebreich: The Ashkenazic and Sephardic, universal as well?
CARL: Absolutely. I don’t know whether it had something to do with the background or pogroms. I don’t know. I’ve never understood it. I’ve never had any problems on a personal basis. I mean Joy Devana, you went to school with her, there were never any problems with any of them. You know, the other Sol Menashe … 

Liebreich: You know, what you haven’t talked [about] in terms of your family life was synagogue. What was your involvement in synagogue?
CARL: Well, my synagogue was Shaarie Torah. Shaarie Torah next year will be a 100th anniversary. I don’t know when – I’m assuming my parents joined when they got married. That was 1915. My uncle was president; my dad’s oldest brother was president in 1928. My dad was president, I think, in 1955. I was president from 1976-77-78. We’ve always been at Shaarie Torah, always been more or less [unintelligible] active there, at a time when the Schnitzers, the Rosenfelds – they were all members of Shaarie Torah and they still maintain membership. Then eventually they switched over to be… not the old folks, but the Shaika Schnitzers. Rose Schnitzer of Schnitzer Manor, their kids, and Morris, Leonard, Harold – Harold still comes on the holidays. As a matter of fact, very interesting, Edith’s son – Edith Goodman, married to Mort Goodman – her son Tom became a member of Shaarie Torah two or three years ago. He wanted his son to be bar mitzvahed at Shaarie Torah, because that’s where he was bar mitzvahed. He comes on the holidays.

Liebreich: Where were you bar mitzvahed?
CARL: Shaarie Torah.

Liebreich: Well, talk about that. What kind of training? 
CARL: I was bar mitzvahed at SW First and Hall. 

Liebreich: The First Street Shul.
CARL: The old center called the First Street Shul. You know, it’s interesting. When I think back, you know, process, my dad worked one time for your uncle.

Liebreich: Which uncle? It must have been … 
CARL: Maybe it’s your great uncle.

Liebreich: Yes, it must have been Jacob.
CARL: He was in the collection business.

Liebreich: Oh no, Abraham Asher. No, J.L. Asher was in the collection business.
CARL: Who was?

Liebreich: J.L. Asher. That’s my grandpa.
CARL: That’s who he worked for at one time.

Liebreich: Really? When was that?
CARL: For a short period of time, you know. It had to be. I don’t know if it was before 1915 or after 1915, but it was many years ago. Then he had a stint in the jewelry business for a short period of time. But anyway, he worked, I remember.

Liebreich: Yes, that was my grandpa.
CARL: Okay. I don’t know what his job was. I don’t know how long it lasted. He was in different things at different times. What were [we] talking about? I lost … 

Liebreich: Okay. We were talking about your bar mitzvah. Talk about it.
CARL: I went to Hebrew School from the time I was eight years old.

Liebreich: At the Neighborhood House?
CARL: At the Neighborhood House. I went to kindergarten at the Neighborhood House. As a matter of fact, I used to go to gym there.

Liebreich: Wait a minute. Back up. Kindergarten, as in public school? There was no kindergarten at Shattuck?
CARL: I don’t recall any. I don’t recall going there.

Liebreich: So you went to kindergarten at Neighborhood House.
CARL: Neighborhood House, yes.

Liebreich: Then moved onto Shattuck when you were in first grade?
CARL: Then I moved on to Shattuck. As a matter of fact, I was born in March, and I started school in September… [I was] 5½ when I started school. I’m going to these parties for my contemporaries. They had one recently. Joy Babani – Joy Russell – she was in my class. I went up to her and I said, “Joy, I don’t understand, either you were real dumb or I was real smart, because I’m not going to be 80 until March!” [laughs]. But Benny Director was 80 in July and Charlene was just 80. Of course, she didn’t go to Shattuck. Ruthie’s going to be [80], I think in November or December.

Liebreich: So you went to cheder and Hebrew School at the age of eight?
CARL: I went to Hebrew School at Neighborhood House. I went there from … and I graduated … I went all through. Some guys would quit after bar mitzvah. A fellow by the name of Kronitz, who was one of my teachers, he davened at my bar mitzvah. We also had, at Shaarie Torah – and this is later on – but in the AZA days, we had a choir. We used to perform at Shaarie Torah in the basement. Some of the people that were in the choir, I’m trying to remember them… 

Liebreich: 1919 choir?
CARL: No.

Liebreich: Before your time?
CARL: That wasn’t us.

Liebreich: That’s the Shaarie Torah Choir.
CARL: Yes, that had to be after. It was probably around 1939, 1940. Sonny Horenstein wasn’t a girl, but they called him Sonny. He was in it. Arnie Burda, I think, used to blow the shofar. I was in it, Benny Director, Irv Potter who died in Europe during the war, and a fellow named Hy Felvarg, who since passed away, Marcia’s husband.

Liebreich: Yes, I remember,
CARL: Yes, we had our own choir and we used to perform downstairs. But I enjoyed Hebrew School, and then our Hebrew School, we used to have Friday night and Saturday services at the Old People’s Home.

Liebreich: Across the street?
CARL: Yes we had a nice [unintelligible]. That’s where we used to perform. Harold Schnitzer used to be one our cantors, or what have you, very well learned. Yes, we used to go there for services. So the bar mitzvah, of course, in those days a little bit different [laughs].

Liebreich: Okay, tell me. How were they different?
CARL: Well, my golly, you hoped you got a fountain pen that didn’t leak [laughs]! There were no ballpoint pens [laughs]! I mean, today – bar mitzvahs today, they put on bar mitzvahs like they put on weddings. In those days, you know, cake, a little this a little that. There was no big spread. But that’s true about a lot of things. Today that we do differently than we did in those days. In the old days, somebody died, you didn’t have a feast later on. Everybody, they were in mourning. 

Liebreich: Well, you weren’t supposed to take anything out of their house.
CARL: There were no celebrations, but that’s okay, things do change. In Los Angeles they put ads in the paper, ‘let us cater your minyan party.’ Stuff like that. 

Liebreich: So did your family go to synagogue on Friday nights, Saturday mornings?
CARL: Yes, my dad did. Friday night was never a big thing at Shaarie Torah. It was always at Saturday morning services. Conservative and Reform, Friday night is the big thing. I know. I’ve been to Neveh Shalom and to Temple. That’s bigger than Saturday. 

Liebreich: And even historically that’s true?
CARL: I think so. Why? I don’t know. Maybe it’s because… I don’t know. The rabbis were different in the old days, you know.

Liebreich: How were they different?
CARL: Well, until – we had several rabbis until Rabbi Geller came. Rabbi Fain, he’s a fine gentleman, but my in-laws didn’t want him to marry us. We had Rabbi Berkowitz from the Temple.

Liebreich: Rabbi Berkowitz married you in Temple?
CARL: Rabbi Berkowitz married us with Cantor Komas.

Liebreich: Where?
CARL: At the Multnomah Hotel. 

Liebreich: No kidding?
CARL: In 1946. We had the old – the balcony – they took over the whole balcony, which in those days, you know, the dinner was $3 or $3.50 [laughs]. But in those days it was big money compared to today!

Liebreich: Rabbi Berkowitz married you!? 
CARL: Rabbi Berkowitz.

Liebreich: Did you wear yarmulkes?
CARL: Yes.

Liebreich: Did he?
CARL: I don’t remember. I don’t think so. Cantor Glanz was there. He performed all the religious [ceremonies]. You know, my dad was a lot more religious than I am.

Liebreich: When you say religious, was he religious or observant? There’s a difference between religious and observant.
CARL: He was more observant than I was, okay, and he did go to synagogue every Saturday.

Liebreich: On Shabbos.
CARL: Yes. We all… you know, I said Kaddish for my parents for 11 months, morning and afternoon. Today, nobody says Kaddish. Very few. [They go to synagogue] maybe one day [a week]; they don’t go every day. Some people do, but not a lot. I go on Saturdays and I’ll say Kaddish for Al. But I don’t know that I’d go every Saturday if it wasn’t for that. So you’re right, there is a difference between observant and religious, definitely a difference. 

Liebreich: So you would find your family to be relatively observant? Did your mother go to synagogue?
CARL: With my dad. Holidays.

Liebreich: But not Shabbos, not every Shabbos. 
CARL: But you know, Yizkor services, everybody went to Yizkor services. But they don’t go now. People don’t go now. I go to every Yizkor service. The last Yizkor service we had was Shemini Atzeret. There weren’t a lot of people in the synagogue, but it was a different group. In many ways, the life that we had in the early days was a better life than we have today.

Liebreich: Why is that?
CARL: Why is that? Because we never locked the doors. We never had to worry about drugs. We accepted people into our homes. Maybe it’s because we all grew up in the same neighborhood and maybe it’s because we all had the same life problems. When there was a murder, it was we call an ‘extra’ newspaper, come out with an extra. Because, you know…

Liebreich: It happened so seldom.
CARL: Crime was not abundant like it is today. There was crime, but not like today. And people had less. Now you go figure it out. You know, I don’t know whether it was education-wise or what. You hear about all these various things that go on, day in, day out. There isn’t a day that goes by that there isn’t a murder or two. Little kids being shot at in the windows. We never had those things. I was involved one time in a robbery. We had a little grocery store and I’m six, seven years old. I went over to get a candy bar. It was right across the street. I came in and all of a sudden the store was being held up, guys with guns and everything!

Liebreich: Oh, dear!
CARL: I’ll never forget [laughs].

Liebreich: I’ll bet!
CARL: It’s over 70 years ago [laughs], but it was very unusual. People left windows open. Who locked the door? Who worried? Now we have alarm systems; we have this; we have that.

Liebreich: Okay, let’s shift gears and move into your activities at Shaarie Torah. What year did you start getting involved in Shaarie Torah?
CARL: Oh, I don’t know. I remember going to a fundraising with my dad in the ‘50s. That was in the old shul, First and Hall.

Liebreich: How old were you in the 50s?
CARL: I was already in my 20s. I remember sitting with my dad and with a funny story. They were all there – the Schnitzers, Rosenfelds, high muck-a-muck, whatever. I remember sitting with my dad and people were making pledges [for] the new synagogue that we ended up building on Park. One fellow gets up [and yells] “$5000!” I don’t remember the guy’s name, but I knew that he didn’t have that kind of money so I turned to my dad, I said, “Isn’t that a wonderful pledge?” My dad said, “It could have been $50,000.” Yes, he wouldn’t pay the 5; he wouldn’t pay the 50 [both laugh]. But he made a pledge. You know, there are a few people like that.

Liebreich: Maybe today, too.
CARL: I would imagine, sometimes. Rabbi Geller came in 1960 and I was already on the board.

Liebreich: Okay, back up, back up. The shul had to move from First and Hall up to Park and Jackson… 
CARL: In 1960. I started to be active before then, but [on] the building committee, I hadn’t. Harry Herzog designed the first drawing. We told him we had X number of dollars. He went way overboard, so we hired somebody else. It was too much for us. But anyway, so we built the shul in 1960 –

Liebreich: Who was the rabbi?
CARL: Well, Rabbi Geller, I think, was the first rabbi in that shul. We had different ones before that. I forget all their names.

Liebreich: Were you aware of the Roiter Rav and the Schwartza Rav and their fighting?
CARL: I’ve only heard stories.

Liebreich: You were a child. 
CARL: I’ve only heard stories about that. Probably Nate Director or somebody like that could tell you that story.

Liebreich: The Roiter Rav and the Schwartza Rav?
CARL: Well, Nate is seven years older than me. So that, no, I didn’t know that. The only one I knew was Rabbi Fain. Rabbi Fain used to sell matzos. He didn’t get paid enough and he was the distributor for Manishewitz – matzos, farfel and wine, whatever. His whole house was full of them and nobody ever thought about ever going anywhere else to by their products except from him. He didn’t make a living. The shul didn’t pay him money. I remember Mr. Labby, who was the old shammes at Shaarie Torah. The Labby family who are in town, they’re all from him. He’d come to my dad’s store and my dad would give him 25 or 50 cents – the dues for the month or whatever, you know. He was a very fine gentleman. Diane’s father [Mr. Labby] read the Torah.

Liebreich: Diane who?
CARL: Diane Nemer.

Liebreich: Diane… Mr. Holtzman.
CARL: His name was Holtzman. When you call a person to the Torah, and you give him a Hebrew name and what have you, he never forgot a name. He was unbelievable; he read beautifully, he was well learned.

Liebreich: This was Mr. Labby who was the shammes?
CARL: Right. Some of the Labby family – Bob Labby – some of those people, they’re all related. Paul Labby, you know Paul? It was his grandfather. In fact, if you look at the wall at Shaarie Torah, you’ll see some of those pictures with the names. Have you seen it, with some of those people? I’ve always been kind of active in different organizations. I was president of the Ramblers.

Liebreich: Yes, we can talk about that when we get to the Center. We’ve got to talk about Shaarie Torah. So you’re first involvement was really in your twenties and they were raising money to move to Park and Jackson. They weren’t on Park and Jackson very long.
CARL: They were five years.

Liebreich: Five years. 
CARL: When we built the synagogue, we went to the Highway Commission and everything. They assured that the freeway was going to go Market Street and was not going to go past us. Then they turned around and decided to go past, take the synagogue. I was involved in that, because I was in the business of assembling all the property where the present synagogue was. Is. We put together 11 different transactions, 11 different ownerships.

Liebreich: Now wait a minute, I’m confused
CARL: Where Shaarie Torah’s on 25th now.

Liebreich: Okay. So, you were on Park and Jackson for five years, and during that time Rabbi Geller came.
CARL: Rabbi Geller came when we first [went to Park and Jackson] in the beginning of 1960.

Liebreich: Were you involved in hiring Rabbi Geller?
CARL: I was on the committee.

Liebreich: Okay, so here’s the question: so the Roiter Rav died? Why did the Roiter Rav leave Shaarie Torah?
CARL: No, actually, that was many years before that.

Liebreich: So there were other rabbis.
CARL: That’s right, three or four rabbis in between. Two or three… there was a Rabbi Gordon, and Rabbi Kolansky. But I don’t remember all their names. I don’t remember that [the Roiter Rav] died. I think the younger people wanted to get somebody ahead a little bit. You know, when we used to have the Yom Kippur and the Rabbi couldn’t speak, Arden Shenker’s father used to speak.

Liebreich: I know. I knew that.
CARL: He was a great orator. He was wonderful. Yes, I was on various committees. Mark Schnitzer was president when Rabbi Geller was hired. 

Liebreich: Okay.
CARL: You remember Mark Schnitzer?

Liebreich: Yes, I knew Mark Schnitzer, yes. So you were on the committee?
CARL: I was on the board, you know, and … 

Liebreich: Can you remember the process for hiring?
CARL: Well, I don’t remember, no. I don’t know that I was actually on that when they interviewed him. I know I was in on the board meetings and what have you. I don’t remember the process exactly. I know that Rabbi Geller had an excellent background, from the standpoint that his grandfather was a rabbi. I know I met his father when he was still alive; he was a rabbi. He has a brother that’s retired who is a rabbi.

Liebreich: Same as Rabbi Rose.
CARL: That’s right. 

Liebreich: Every man in Rabbi Rose’s family and now his son, also.
CARL: And now his son is going to be a rabbi. He told me he was delighted about that. I don’t remember exactly what the process was. I wasn’t necessarily part of the leadership group, but I became [active in] that in probably the 60s. Like I say, I was president in ’66. We moved in ’65.

Liebreich: You moved in… meaning to Lovejoy and NW 25th?
CARL: Right. Morrie Greenstein was president when we moved in. I was president by next year. So I was active all up to that time, vice-president, I guess, for Morrie. I don’t remember how many years I was involved.

Liebreich: So when Rabbi Geller came, there were changes made at Shaarie Torah.
CARL: In what way?

Liebreich: Well, in terms of the role of women. In terms of the integration into the community. It’s my understanding that Rabbi Geller was the rabbi who initiated the board of Rabbis.
CARL: That could be.

Liebreich: Do you know that or am I just inserting that?
CARL: No, that’s probably true. That’s probably true. 

Liebreich: He integrated Shaarie Torah into the community in a greater way than what they had been before.
CARL: Well, you know, it’s interesting, because when you think about the various rabbis we had during that period of time, you know, three rabbis: Rabbi Geller, Rabbi Stampfer and Rabbi Rose. They combine 120 years. You know? No rabbi lasted that long at any congregation. Rabbi Kleinman was at Neveh Zedek quite a while, but he was a different kind of a guy, you know. I think for the most part, yes, since the board of Rabbis there’s been more cooperation than there was in the past. The Orthodox looked down on the Reform, the Reform looked down on the Orthodox. Let’s face it. 

Liebreich: Do you think that’s still true?
CARL: No, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. Each one has their own turf, but the point is, I don’t think they look down on each other. I think they respect each other. And I’ve always felt comfortable wherever I go. I’m not saying that I [don’t] have a preference. Sure, I do have preference, because I’m more comfortable with my own synagogue. But I don’t feel uncomfortable if I go to Temple or to Neveh Shalom.

Liebreich: Or even Havurah Shalom.
CARL: Even Havurah Shalom. I don’t feel uncomfortable.

Liebreich: I know. I know. 
CARL: And I’ve been to Temple de Hirsch in Seattle. I went to a wedding there. They have a guitar and whatever. Whatever makes people happy.

Liebreich: Okay, so tell me, you became president of Shaarie Torah in ’66?
CARL: I was president in ’66, ’67.

Liebreich: So what’s it like to be president of a synagogue?
CARL: [laughs] Well, I’ll put it to you this way. Finances become an integral part of any organization, especially a non-profit. Finances become a problem for every organization. I don’t care how small they are or how big they are. They all have some problems. When we went to build on Park Street, we had to borrow from the bank $150,000, which we did. In those days it was the First National Bank. When they moved us, the extra expense, etc. etc. etc., we had to borrow $250,000. So the First National was always taking care of us.

Morrie Greenstein happened to be a customer of US National. He said, “Why don’t we give everybody a chance?” So I said to Morrie, “Well, whom do you suggest?” “Well, the two big banks – First National [and] the US.” I said fine, but we have to tell them, each one of them, “This is what we need, give us your best offer.” We won’t go chasing back and forth; we’ll choose the one that gives us the best deal. I thought that was the fairest way. No one was going to get mad. So US came up with the best deal. First National didn’t like it. After they recorded the deal, they called me up and said, ‘What is it? We’ve always taken care [of you].’ They really got mad. What happened here, they had a lot of Jewish money. The vice-president of the bank called me and he says “I don’t understand; we’ve always taken care of you in the past!” Just like that, “We’ve always taken care of your people in the past”

Liebreich: Oh, “your people.”
CARL: I said, “Maybe it’s because our people always paid their bills when they were supposed to!” I was really insulted. “We told you, we gave you the same scenario, they came up with cheaper interest [and] longer pay out, so we chose them.” We had this $250,000 mortgage and, like I say, I was already pretty active. So I said that. I initiated something that had never been done before. I said to them, with a 20-year mortgage, we don’t want to pay that for 20 years; we should pay it off in 10 years. What we should do is have a mortgage redemption club and each one of us will give you $10 a month, $25, $50, whatever. Let’s get enough money in on a monthly basis that we can pay it off in 10 years instead of 20 years. And we did. It worked. People responded to their ability, not everybody, but there was enough there that we paid it off in 10 years.

Liebreich: Was that the beginning of your fundraising activity?
CARL: No not really. I’d already been involved with the Home, because I remember when they were, uhhh… Gene Nudelman and I were very good friends. Gene Sr. was on the board of the Men’s Camp and I was on the board then, sitting with an [unintelligible]. He had some experience with fundraising. He says to me, he says, “I need your help.” He says, “The [Robison] Home wants to build an infirmary.” You know, at first there wasn’t an infirmary. He wanted to build an infirmary. He needed a way to get money – “Help me out.” So I got involved with raising money for the Home, you know. I don’t know. They keep calling me [laughs]. I’m kind of washed out now. 

Liebreich: Okay, so back to Shaarie Torah. So you started … what was the club called?
CARL: Mortgage Redemption.

Liebreich: Mortgage Redemption. Was there other fundraising for the synagogue besides that?
CARL: We always had Yom Kippur Drive.

Liebreich: Talk about the Yom Kippur Drive. Young people don’t know about Yom Kippur Drive. 
CARL: Well, the point is this; you know, like I said, there’s always a shortage of money. And, you know, let’s face it, there are a lot of people that are on, we’ll call it ‘marginal dues.’ They don’t pay the basic dues. You have to give them consideration, whatever, right or wrong. You know, probably every synagogue, I’ll bet has 40 to 50% that do not pay the full dues. You know, for whatever reason. There never seems to be enough money. So when we started Yom Kippur Drive. I don’t remember when it started, years ago, might have even started in the old shul. When we spend an hour or so and people pledge, have an opportunity to pledge before they send out forms before, and people… $35,000 – $40,000 every Yom Kippur. That helps to balance the budget. 

Liebreich: But explain it. They actually pledge by yelling out their [pledge amount] and you still do that.
CARL: Oh yes, just had it at Yom Kippur.

Liebreich: But now you write it down before. I always wondered how everybody remembered.
CARL: Well, some people do. No, we have a non-Jewish person sitting in the back with a tape recorder and what have you, and we use a microphone in the synagogue, and so it’s recorded down. It works. It works, it works. It’s just like when we’re called up to the synagogue for an aliyah, you know, we used to have – they used to speak it out loud, so much. Now it’s different. During the year on Saturday, they give you an envelope. During the Holidays, Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah, they have cards there, and it shows different amounts. You point to it and one of the fellow standing there puts a star or something, I don’t know.

Liebreich: So besides the pledge, which happens probably right before Yizkor. 
CARL: Yes, when they read the Torah.

Liebreich: Yes, so besides the pledge, they still charge for aliyahs?
CARL: They don’t charge

Liebreich: They ask for a donations.
CARL: It’s a volunteer, a volunteer…

Liebreich: Donations for aliyahs, okay, okay, and … 
CARL: And there used to be special haftorahs. Abe Rosenfeld used to buy one for Ben Rosenfeld to pay the long one on Yom Kippur. He wasn’t a member, but he was very well learned and a fine man. Abe Rosenfeld used to pay a [unintelligible].

Liebreich: And those are the major ways you raised money there?
CARL: Yes. Well, you know, a few other little gimmicks once in a while. A deal. Meier & Frank offered a non-profit when they opened up Tannesborn. $5 a ticket, you get 25% off on anything you buy. The charity can keep the money. We made about $3000 off of that.

Liebreich: Yes, yes. Albertsons does that in a smaller way. 
CARL: You’ve got to have these extra fundraising deals. Temple used to put on a show. I don’t know what else they do. You’ve got to, because basic dues don’t pay for… You know, unfortunately today to hire people, whether it be clergy or office people or whatever, it takes a lot of money to run the synagogue. 

Liebreich: Yes, it does. Right. So you were president and… I have to go back, that there were changes at Shaarie Torah. They went from Orthodox Judaism to what they called Modern Orthodox Judaism to Traditional Judaism. 
CARL: We never called it Modern. It’s always been from Orthodox to Traditional.

Liebreich: Okay, okay.
CARL: Maybe Nate said something different.

Liebreich: No, not Nate. I read it in there. So what does Traditional mean?
CARL: What does Traditional mean? We still do all the prayers. We don’t cut out any of the prayers. We still read the Torah. We do have mixed seating, which Orthodox does not allow. 

Liebreich: And that’s the basic…
CARL: But that happened on First and Hall.

Liebreich: The seating happened on First and Hall?
CARL: Right. Oh, yes. 

Liebreich: Really? I remember going to First and Hall and sitting upstairs.
CARL: Well, what happened was – I think it was one of our older members and one of our more distinguished members, and one of our major contributors. What happened was he lost his wife, he married this woman, she said, “I’m not going upstairs.” You know, all of a sudden, you know. “Well, I don’t want to go up there.” I used to go upstairs to see my mother and grandmother, all the time. And you did too, probably, right?

Liebreich: Yes.
CARL: But, they finally… but most of the prayers were … there was very little English, you know.

Liebreich: So when they became Traditional, did they change the prayer book?
CARL: Well, what happened was… One of the things that made us Traditional was we quit the Orthodox group, whatever they called themselves. For whatever reason, I don’t…

Liebreich: The national organization.
CARL: The national organization. It was costly, they were too demanding, etc. etc. So it’s more Traditional. I mean, you go to Meade Street, it’s different than Shaarie Torah. Let’s face it, it’s a lot different. But what’s in a name, anyway? It doesn’t mean anything. I mean, I’ve been in temples – Reform – when there’s a lot more tradition than there has been in the past. Even today, Temple Beth Israel, I go there two times a year, whatever, and I see people wearing yarmulkes. I wear a yarmulke whenever I go into any synagogue. I see people wearing tallisim. Joel Seres is a good friend of mine. He wears a tallis and it doesn’t seem to be objectionable by anybody. So they’ve come the other way somewhat, don’t you think? 

Liebreich: Oh, yes. Well, yes. Beth Israel started out to be classic Reform, and has evolved into a synagogue for all people.
CARL: Right. You’ve got to play to the audience, you know.

Liebreich: To the congregation. So, back to Shaarie Torah. Talk about the evolving role of women. 
CARL: Well, it’s slow. It’s very slow. Women are still not called to the Torah, but they are doing some haftorahs. Like, we had one a week or so ago. She was terrific. 

Liebreich: Was it a bat mitzvah girl? Or a woman?
CARL: This was a woman. Now, I’m told, she teaches bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs. She was terrific. She’s a newcomer to town. I’m very bad on names

Liebreich: It doesn’t matter. She … 
CARL: Her husband is an Assistant Pediatric Professor at OHSU. I want to say Hollis or something. She was wonderful, she was wonderful.

Liebreich: Can women go to the higher pulpit?
CARL: No. We have the bima down there.

Liebreich: Women stay on the lower bima.
CARL: Yes. We have some, a few people that don’t like the idea. But on the other hand, there’s a lot of people that… Nate Director and Frieda Gans both spoke at Yom Kippur. [They said] that we should have more and more of this, in order for our synagogue – that women become an integral part… We’ve had people quit because their daughter couldn’t be bat mitzvahed. It’s more important that they have people that are involved than the halachah that goes with it. I don’t know that there’s anything even written, you know, that says women cannot participate more.

Liebreich: There must be something in halachah that says that.
CARL: So, what do you know about the women’s minyan?

Liebreich: They’ve had a women’s minyan at Shaarie Torah. I don’t know that much about it, but I’ve seen they’ve had 80, 90, 100 women that have their own service. Were you involved on the board when they did that?
CARL: No.

Liebreich: You were not.
CARL: But it’s fine. As far as I’m concerned, it’s fine. I don’t see anything wrong with it.

Liebreich: How did the Milton and Cissi Carl Preschool come about? How did you get your name on that, of all the things there are to name?
CARL: Oh! Sharon Pollin and somebody else came to me. “We’d like to use your name,” and whatever. I really didn’t want to, but they bent my arm and so… It’s quite successful, from what they tell me. 

Liebreich: There’s still a pre-school there?
CARL: Oh, yes.

Liebreich: Yes.
CARL: Non-Jewish kids.

Liebreich: Oh, they take non-Jewish kids?
CARL: Yes. Not a lot. They had some synagogue [event?], you know. Ciss and I went to it, you know, and the kids, one of the kids, I was sitting across from this couple and having a conversation and they weren’t even Jewish. But they were very comfortable with the setting and I was very comfortable with them. Very fine people, you know, and they weren’t Jewish [laughs]. That’s the first time I realized it.

Liebreich: I think all the prep-schools take non-Jewish people. The Foundation School at Neveh Shalom I know does, and also Beth Israel.
CARL: I think it’s good. The Foundation School at Neveh Shalom is wonderful. My kids went there. 

Liebreich: Yes, it’s large, very large. Okay, is there something I should have asked you that I’ve forgotten about Shaarie Torah?
CARL: You know, you said it before. You said it well. There are observant Jews and there are religious Jews.

Liebreich: Okay. Talk about the difference, though.
CARL: They don’t necessarily mean the same thing, because I have found, of some observant Jews, they go out and do things that I [am] aghast at. And there are other people who don’t attend necessarily synagogue, but conduct themselves in a very religious and honorable way. That to me is the most important thing. Not how much you pound your chest; it’s whether or not you live a life that you shouldn’t have to go to Yom Kippur and say, “I sinned.” To me it’s more important to be a religious person and not necessarily an observant person. That’s my feelings about it. I mean, I’ve been through the whole gamut of the thing, but I still feel the same way. 

There [are] people I know in my business. I’ve done business with some people and sometimes I’ve been disappointed in their… they’re not as honorable as I hoped they would be. Because I always did business on a handshake, I never required [anyone] to sign things, so I feel that the other person should be the same way. If you give a person a word, you should live up to your word. Otherwise don’t… That’s me. Maybe I’m crazy, but that’s the way I’ve lived. I feel to grow up in Portland, with wonderful friends, wonderful contemporaries. Unfortunately our ranks are getting thinner all the time. I think I went to five funerals in the last two weeks. 

Liebreich: I know. 
CARL: And it’s difficult, difficult to say goodbye, whether it’s family or friends. It’s difficult, because what happens is… and that’s why I’m so…. I’ve been involved as much as I have with the Home, because I was president in 1982 and 1983 at the Home. The thing I said to them after I left the presidency is, the one thing we have to do, we have to build something that’s in in-between that time when people go into the Home. Because some people are going to the Home that don’t have to be in the Home. They should be in a different setting.

Liebreich: Like your mother and father.
CARL: They had to go to the Home. My dad did, my mother didn’t have to.

Liebreich: You mother didn’t have to, right.
CARL: But my dad, they amputated his leg. He had to, but my mother didn’t have to go there. That’s why it took a few years to get it all together, but had we not build the Manor, we probably wouldn’t have a Home today, because the amount of money that we lose at the Home is astronomical.

Liebreich: Okay. That’s for next week. When we come together again, we’re going to talk about that. Do you know about the Free Loan Society?
CARL: The only thing I can tell you about the Free Loan Society is they used to have a synagogue. I want to say it was on First and Caruthers. It was called the Linath Hazedek Synagogue and they used to have a meeting there. They used to have this Free Loan Society and they would lend money to people with no interest. The one that was really involved (and I’ll tell you who to talk to, would give more information) was Mrs. Rosen. If you get a hold of Jack Rosen, who’s still at the Home, Jack will tell you more about the Free Loan Society. 

Liebreich: Okay, but the Free Loan Society is still in existence.
CARL: I don’t think so. Is it?

Liebreich: Jewish Family Service.
CARL: Oh, does it? Well, Nettie was very much involved with it after her mother died, Nettie Director. Yes. So they had that.

Liebreich: I know people who have gotten money from it.
CARL: Oh, really? Okay. So that’s part of Jewish Family & Child Service. I don’t know. I was never involved with the organization. 

Liebreich: Well, talk about Friendly Rosenthal. What is Friendly Rosenthal?
CARL: Well, Friendly Rosenthal… You know, the family was Mel Friendly’s father, who established this foundation years and years ago. He wanted to build a hospital, a Jewish hospital. Of course, even in those days there wasn’t enough money. I don’t remember exactly how it started out, but the person who can tell you more of the beginning is Stuart Durkheimer, because I think Stuart’s the oldest one on the board. I came on sometime in the ’60s and became president Mish Rosencrantz died. Mish was the president and we did a lot of good things for the community. Eventually what we did, we merged it into the Oregon Jewish Community Foundation. We still do a lot of good work. We gave a lot of money to the Home, the Manor. The original purpose was to serve elderly people, but we expanded it a little bit from time to time. It’s wonderful and basically, if there were more of these foundations around, there would be more sources to take care of some of the needs. So they’ve given away a lot of money.

Liebreich: Yes, over the years.

[Tape 1 cuts off at this point, which may have been the end of the 10/27 interview. We now move on to the second tape.]

Liebreich: This is Joan Liebreich. Today is Friday, November 19, 2004. I am here with Marilyn Yoelin and we are going to interview Milt Carl today. This is our second interview with Milt, and our goal today is to discuss his involvement with the Mittleman Jewish Community Center and his involvement with the Cedar Sinai Park. Let’s start with the Jewish Community Center and talk about your involvement there: how you got involved. I’m talking as a child. You must have got involved as a child. 
CARL: Well, you know [laughs], actually, when I was kid – and I’m talking about when I was five, six years old or so – I went to kindergarten at the Neighborhood House, when I was four or five years old. And I went to the gym at the Neighborhood House. At that time a fellow by the name of Harry Policar was there, who people referred to as “Polly,” and he was just great. He was just great with kids, just a wonderful man. 

Liebreich: Where was he? He was at the Jewish Community – 
CARL: He was at the Neighborhood House.

Liebreich: Oh, okay.
CARL: Then, a couple of years later, the Jewish Community Center hired him as an athletic director and he moved up to the Jewish Community Center on 13th. So I told my dad, “I want to go where Polly is.” Okay. So that was my first introduction and I was probably… I would guess around eight years old. The dues were 25 cents a month. An adult man was $12.00 and a family was $24.00. You could have one, two – we had one family, had eight kids. Then later on, of course, dues went up a little bit. They went up to $36 or what have you. From the standpoint of activity or a place to go, that was the place to go. You know, there was no TV or other entertainment, and this was the place that kids [wanted] to go.

Liebreich: What did they do there?
CARL: Well, you know, besides athletics, we had clubs. I belonged to a club called the Cardinal Club. The Cardinals were a group of fellows – kids – who were eight, nine, 10, 11,12. Pre-AZA. People like Harry Glickman and Harold Saltzman, and people like that, you know. They all belonged to the Cardinals. Don’t ask me what we did. I don’t know. We had a club. You know, Jewish people liked to have clubs, in those days. 

Of course from then, I got involved – when I was 14 and in high school – I got involved with AZA and BBYO. The girls were called BBGs and the fellows were called AZAs. In those days AZA was from 14 to 21. I guess the reason it was extended to 21 was because not everybody went to college. It was service and a wonderful organization, and it was sponsored by B’nai B’rith and the B’nai B’rith youth. That’s what it was. I’m happy to say that they still have it. I became quite active in it. As a matter of fact, I was probably the youngest Aleph Gadol they had at that time. I think I was either 15 or 16 when I became Aleph Gadol. 

So, okay, that takes us up to the time that I graduated high school and went off to college, which I only attended for one semester, because the War was on and I told my folks I wanted to join up. 

Liebreich: Where did you go to college?
CARL: I went to college in the fall of 1942.

Liebreich: Where?
CARL: University of Oregon. I was initiated after I left the semester, they initiated me later on – I came back in my uniform – as a Sammy..

Liebreich: Well, talk about that a little bit: a Sammy house in 1942?
CARL: There was a Sammy House at –

Liebreich: SAMMY house is what? Sigma Alpha?
CARL: Sigma Alpha Mu. There’s still many Sigma Alpha Mus all over the country, but unfortunately not at Oregon, not at Washington anymore. I still pay alumni dues. They are still somewhat strong, especially in the major colleges throughout the United States. 

Liebreich: Well, talk about the Sammy house when you were there.
CARL: The Sammy house when I was there was a [fraternity] house. I forget how many were in the house, but I think there were about 10 in our freshman class. Like I say, I was there such a short time, as far as that goes, I got schpilkes [restless; agitated]. Do you understand what schpilkes means? [turns to Marilyn]

Marilyn: Oh sure, I’m from Brooklyn.
CARL: In case people that hear this won’t understand what schpilkes is; I still get schpilkes.

Marilyn: Me too.
CARL: When can I leave!? [laughter]

Liebreich: But I want to go to Sammy for a while. Tell me about the Sammy house, the Sammy organization’ its position, its interaction with the rest of the Greek system, or its relationship to the rest of the school.
CARL: Oh, yes. It’s a Greek fraternity, as far as that goes. In those days, I don’t know what it is today, but in those days it was all Jewish. On the other hand, in those days Jews were not admitted into the other fraternities. Today it’s a different ballgame. 

Liebreich: Were any of the men in the Sammy house involved in campus activities?
CARL: Yes, yes, definitely. Ray Packouz.

Liebreich: What did he do?
CARL: He was the Prior of the House when I was there, which is like the president; and he was on a couple of honoraries and I think he was president of the senior class. Leonard Barde was also on one or two of the honoraries. Harry Glickman was on one of the honoraries. They were fairly well represented. 

Liebreich: So they didn’t – or you didn’t – feel any Anti-Semitism in ’42 when you were at the University of Oregon?
CARL: No. As a matter of fact, I know it existed, because obviously when you’re denied admission to organizations, it’s anti-Semitic, okay. On the other hand, I never felt it on a personal basis, because I never had any inclination, shall we say, to belong. I mean, my friends were all Jewish. I mean, that’s what I grew up. I have many non-Jewish friends today, but in those days my friends were all Jewish. Of course the, Jewish [people in Portland], we lived in a neighborhood that was primarily Jewish and Italian, you know. That’s what we grew up with. So I didn’t feel any antisemitism. On the other hand, I knew it existed. It even existed here in Portland in later years in a Masonic Lodge. I forget the lodge number, but they have a Masonic Lodge, which was predominantly Jewish, but it was mixed. There’s was a period of time there – it only takes one blackball – that Jews were being blackballed in this particular Lodge. 

Liebreich: It had to be…
CARL: And people used to go out of town. My father-in-law was very active in Eugene and he used to sponsor some of the Jewish salesman and they joined the Eugene Lodge.

Liebreich: Your father-in-law’s name was?
CARL: Joe Weinstein. So he used to do that. But there came a time at the Lodge here that the Jewish guys got together with the others and said, “Look, you keep this up, there will never be another person that’s initiated in this Lodge.”

Liebreich: What year was that?
CARL: Oh, I don’t know. I would imagine it was in the 40s. But that’s beside the point. You were asking me about the Center.

Liebreich: Yes. Well, I wanted to get into the Sammy House a little bit, okay? So you went away – 
CARL: I was there such a short time, as far as that goes. As far as, you know, some of my pledge [mates], were …. too many of them are not around, unfortunately, but anyway there’s a Rick…

Liebreich: Rick?
CARL: It was fine time in my life. Like I said, I was anxious to do something else and so I did. I joined up.

Liebreich: You went into the Navy.
CARL: I went into the Navy in January 1943 and I was in until April of ’46. I didn’t see any combat, but had several experiences with that. Aside from that, as far as the Center was concerned, obviously when we all came back and we got married and what have you, there was a very strong club in the Center called the Rambler Club. The Ramblers were a service organization. Just like the South Parkway was at the Neighborhood House, the Ramblers were at the Jewish Community Center. Everybody wants to be a Rambler. We had a wonderful group of guys – the Ramblers. English Rosenberg was a very strong Rambler. Many others: Eddie Potter, Benny Harris, and most of these people that are gone. I got involved with the Ramblers. I can’t tell you chronologically exactly, but I was president at one time. 

We used to do a lot of good service work. We used to put on smokers – boxing smokers. We’d set up a ring in the gym and we had some very fine fights that went on there. It was a money-raiser for us. We used to put out a souvenir program. Tommy Moyer, who owns half of Portland, a very wealthy guy, he was a boxer. He used to coach his nephew and they worked out at the Center and participated in the smoker. Amateur athletics was very strong then. Eddie Potter was involved. Benny Harris was involved. A lot of the fellows were involved in that type of thing. In fact, Benny Harris, who was a strong Rambler, actually [joined] an amateur team to Europe one year, a boxing team. 

So those were really wonderful days and Tommy Moyer has always been a very good friend of the Jewish people. As a matter of fact, he donated $50,000 to the Manor, which was very nice. Really a high type guy. So as far as the Center is concerned, the people that, – really some of the leadership of the Center…. I can’t tell you. There again my memory fails me. But I was asked to go on the board.

Liebreich: So this is after you were married how long?
CARL: Oh, I’m guessing that maybe after I was married 10 years or so, I started getting involved. English Rosenberg and Milton Margulis were really two strong advocates of the Center. And Harry Arnsberg. There were others. If you go to the Center and look at the past presidents board, you can see some of the people that were actually involved with the Center. As a matter of fact, the Center was actually the origination of the original people from the Center… Actually, [they] were people who very much involved with Temple Beth Israel, the first presidents 

Liebreich: I read that in the Jews of Oregon. 
CARL: They were very much involved. Later on, of course, it became more assimilate. Interesting enough, I don’t remember… well, Julius Meier, who was the governor, was the president of the Center at one time. But some of the leading Jews in Portland… Well, anyway, Miton Margulis was very active, and English Rosenberg, and they persuaded me to come onto the board. I’m guessing it was sometime around ’57, ’58, ’59 – somewhere in that neighborhood. I was active there. I was past treasurer [and] past vice-president before I became president, which was in ’69. I was president [in] ’69, ‘70 and ’71. I was president for 3 years. 

So, you know, when everybody came back from [military] Service, the Center was the place to go. It was our second home, you might say. That’s where many weddings – not many weddings, but many engagements came about because of AZA, BBYO. They had conventions. Well, you were involved, were you not, at that time? And, you know, it was wonderful, it was wonderful. Of course, Polly was the athletic director there and Mickey was the aquatics director: just very fine individuals. I couldn’t say enough [about] them because they did it for the love of what they were doing, because their pay was very, very slim. Very, very slim.

Liebreich: Okay, so we’re talking about activities in the old building on 13th Street, right?
CARL: Right. Then we get to a point that was during my period of time that I was really very, very active, the Portland State wanted to take our property. We had to look for another location. I was charged with the responsibility of finding a proper location. That’s the reason we ended up where we’re at. There’s ten acres that were available. There was a partnership – one of the partners were Jewish – and we were able to buy that ten acres. Then we negotiated with the state for the sale of our old building. I was very much involved with the negotiations and the finalization of that sale to the State. We started with a fundraising. We appointed Julius Zell, who was our fundraising chairman at that time.

Liebreich: What year was this?
CARL: Well, I think we actually – I’m assuming that we started fundraising around ’68, ’69. We opened in ’71. We had to pick certain people to help us. As a matter of fact, names came forward to help us that were just wonderful. Jack Meier, who was the son of Julius Meier, the governor, he helped us a little bit to get some donations. A fellow by the name of Ed Sammons, who was formerly a president of the US National Bank, he assisted us. These are contacts that we made through Julius and others, and we were able to raise the necessary funds to build the building. 

Liebreich: So you talk about “we.” I know Julius Zell was the chairman, you were president. Who else was involved in the fundraising? In the leadership?
CARL: There’s an old – it’s got to be in an old program somewhere – that shows everything. Gene Nudelman, Harry Arnsberg – everybody was involved. We had a lot of involvement, a lot of involvement, because the Center was very meaningful to a lot of people. We owed them. We owed the community for providing this building for us to grow up in, as far as that goes. We opened with a flourish. 

Liebreich: The new building.
CARL: I had Governor McCall there, I think, for the groundbreaking. Incidentally, Governor McCall’s wife used our therapy pool when she needed some rehab work and stuff like that. We used to serve the entire community and it wasn’t only…. Of course, in the early days – I’m not talking about now – going back into the 30s, the polio epidemic was very strong. The Center was responsible, with Mickey, to get in there with these polio patients. That’s how the therapy pool was evolved. That’s why we built a separate therapy pool. It’s still being used today. Even though – with all the problems the Center has, the therapy pool is still being used. So, like I say, that was the place. We got donations from people that were very surprising Dr. Brill is an illustration – one of the rooms is named after his wife. Very supportive. Just a lot of people [unintelligible]. Of course, in those days, the dollars were different. We built that building, which the first part of it was 84,000 square feet, ten acres of ground.

Liebreich: What do you mean the first part? Explain that.
CARL: Well, since that time, the school was added on and there’s been additions made. The first building was 84,000 square feet and ten acres and we furnished it with a total cost of 3 million dollars You know, today’s wages, you couldn’t build it for 10 million dollars. You can’t believe what it would cost to replace all that building. But the Hebrew School wanted to move in there, because at that time the Hebrew School was meeting at Neighborhood House. We worked on an arrangement so the Hebrew School could move in there. They participated modestly, but they did participate. They had a few dollars and put it into the pool, so that they could have their classes there, which was [in] our classrooms on one of the building there, before it goes into PJA.

Liebreich: This was an after-school Hebrew program for children?
CARL: Yes, after-school. It was not a day school. Later on, of course, the day school was meeting at Shaarie Torah. [the] Hillel Academy. They wanted to merge with the Hebrew school and there was all kinds of political conflict. They asked me to assist in getting them together, which I did, and we finally got them together. That’s when PJA was built. I don’t remember exactly the year, somewhere in the ‘80s. You can check that out; I think maybe ’85 or something like that. But they started and, of course, the school’s going on today. From an education standpoint it’s very successful. They put out some well-educated kids. Like every non-profit, they also have financial problems, but they seem to be working. There’s a strong support and they work through it. I think there are something like 250 students today. When Hillel left Shaarie Torah they had about 30-35 students. 

Liebreich: And Hillel became Portland Jewish Academy.
CARL: That’s right: Hillel. Later on, the Hebrew school stopped. They were not getting … they were not able to do what they wanted to. Each synagogue had their own programs and what have you, so now it’s just one parochial school, as far as that goes. Although they do take in non-Jewish kids, I’m told. They do an excellent [job] of secular education. In fact, my daughter Pam is a substitute teacher over there.

Liebreich: So that brings us to date with the Jewish Community Center. We haven’t talked about B’nai B’rith Camp, BB Camp.
CARL: Well, the B’nai B’rith Camp: the kid’s camp actually started in about 1921 and the present location was 1928. They started out in a place called Neskowin. I have no idea what the site was. I have no idea what it looked like or anything like that. But in 1928, the Meier family – which was Julius Meier, his brother Abe Meier, and his sister – donated land to the… Well, in those days the building was owned by the B’nai B’rith. They donated the land to B’nai B’rith and that’s when the camp was established, at Devil’s Lake in 1928. The Men’s Group started in 1931. There again it was people like Samuel B. Weinstein, Harry Mittleman, Branch Boskowitz – some of the old timers. Gene Nudelman may have been one. It started with about 11 [unintelligible] and from that day forward… Bernie Ganner was the first president. He was president for about 12 years, I think.

Liebreich: This is president of B’nai B’rith Camp, of the B’nai B’rith Camp board.
CARL: That’s right. He was president for about 12 years or so, and then Lou Schnitzer was president for about four years. Milton Margulis was president for 25 years. Milton Margulis was also past president of the Center and the B’nai B’rith Lodge. I’ve been president for 33 years.

Liebreich: Are you really still president? 
CARL: [nods]

Liebreich: So the purpose of the Men’s Group is to raise funds for the camp?
CARL: The purpose is to furnish scholarship funds. In the past [it was to] take care of deficits and do all the improvements. That’s what we do. We raise money every year, as far as that goes, at Camp, for that purpose. We’ve a loyal group of people. Unfortunately many of them are gone now, but they come and they go. We get new people, what have you. I started going… I’ve gone for 48 consecutive years. 

Liebreich: Talk about Men’s Camp. The week at Men’s Camp.
CARL: Well, Men’s Camp is part of the BB Camp. We meet the Third week in August every year for one week. We have fellows that come – well, basically most of our people come from the Northwest. We have fellows that used to come from Las Vegas, and we have other people come from different parts of the country, who have some tie-ins. It’s a wonderful experience.

Liebreich: Is this unique? Are there men’s camps around the country?
CARL: This is the only one in the country

Liebreich: In the country that you know …
CARL: [The only camp], to my knowledge, that has this kind of a situation. It’s just a week of good fun. Now in the old days, we used to put on our own show. We put on a show once called Fiddler on the Roof. We wrote our own lyrics! One of the songs went: [singing] “The Stain from Chrain stays mainly on the Tsein!” You recognize the tune? [laughter] [The song is set to the tune of “The Rain in Spain” from the musical My Fair Lady]. 

Liebreich: Of course! 
CARL: We had some very talented guys. We put on a wedding ceremony one time. We had a chuppah: from the four corners were five pound salamis hanging and I think Lou Tobin was one of the brides [laughs]. There were other people like that. We had some very funny people and we had some very talented people. We had people that had been on the Al Grant [show?]. I don’t know if you remember him.

Liebreich: I remember Al Grant. 
CARL: Tom Grant’s father. He was a vaudevillian in his early years. We put on some really great shows. We don’t put on the shows anymore, but we have a lot of fun anyway. We have a lot of people that tell good stories and jokes and what have you. It’s a one week a year that we as men have a chance to relax, forget about the problems and everything else, and just have a good time. The benefit is for the kids, that’s what the benefit’s for. 

As a matter of fact, one year – and I can’t exactly remember what year it was – we were featured on the Today Show, nationally. One of our camper’s son used to work for the Today Show, a fellow by the name of Bill Sternoff. The camper’s name was Irv Sternoff, from Seattle, a very talented guy also. But his son came in there with three photographers and took pictures all week long, and we were featured on the Today Show [with] Tom Brokaw. People saw this all over the country. I got calls [from] all over the country. It featured a lot of people. I was president then and I made a couple of speeches and what have you, and it showed some of the gags that went on. Put a sprinkler on your table and all of a sudden the guys…[laughs]. And they did, they showed it and we have it. We have it. It’s a video.

Liebreich: You have it?
CARL: Oh yes. We have many videos. Every year we have a Man of the Year [tape skips] … and the last several [tape skips] … David Kahn [remainder of sentence inaudible]. David used to work for [unintelligible] and David has a lot of contacts, so we have a Man of the Year; we have a presentation. He gets people like Larry King and other people like that to do bits for us. And, of course, we have videos of all those. It’s very good.

Liebreich: Okay. So you have to explain that this Man of the Year dinner happens on …
CARL: It’s not really, it’s a …

Liebreich: You have dinner.
CARL: We have it every year, usually on a Sunday night. We honor one of our campers.

Liebreich: This is in Portland?
CARL: No, no, this is at the camp. In the old days, we used to have some banquets in Portland also. No this goes on in camp. Various people have been Man of the Year – Margulis, Nudelman, myself…

Liebreich: What happened to the Wednesday night?
CARL:Well, it used to be – Wednesday night used to be show night, you know. Thursday night used to be Good and Welfare, when people gave donations. 

Liebreich: That’s what I’m getting at. What night did you give the donations?
CARL: All right. I’m losing track of time. For many years, Saturday night. Good and Welfare, Sunday nights. The reason we changed the timing is because, in the old days, you were told you come for the week or don’t come. But we had to adjust, because people weren’t staying for the whole week. So we adjusted. We moved forward some of the programs in the early part of the week. But still, the Camp is for one week, and it’s not as heavy towards the end as it is at the beginning. 

Liebreich: So it’s my understanding that there is one night where people will come down just for the day and that night.
CARL: Wednesday is visitor’s day. 

Liebreich: Right. And there’s programming that night after dinner?
CARL: Nothing really special any more. It used to be we used to put on the shows on Wednesday night. But they come down; we get 20, 30 people come down. Friends of the Camp, whatever.

Liebreich: So you do fundraising that night?
CARL: No. Usually the people that come down – usually you’ll leave a donation.

Liebreich: I see. Okay. So Thursday night is the donation night?
CARL: No. Now it’s Sunday night. Originally it was Thursday.

Liebreich: How do you do the donation night? Is there a structure to it?
CARL: Well, basically – basically, what it used to be, in the old days, everybody would get up and give their donations. Lot of the donations now are done by cabins. A cabin, let’s say of ten fellows, will give [unintelligible]. They announce it for the cabin and give us a list of the names. There are still some fellows individually who give. 

Liebreich: How much money do you raise?
CARL: Oh, it varies. There’s no set amount, there’s no set amount.

Liebreich: Okay. So, children pay to go to BB Camp and you raise money to do improvements on BB Camp. Is that enough to keep it going?
CARL: Well, the point is this – it has been. And the thing is this, as far as the Men’s Camp is concerned, they’re the ones who have funded the Camp for several years, as far as that goes. The Center can’t afford deficits; we have more-or-less funded it. We give a lot of scholarships out. It’s not like it used to be. It’s very expensive today to send somebody to Camp. Our ongoing expenses are just tremendous. We have two caretakers, you know? You got people here – staff people – the cost of food, the cost of transportation, the cost of utilities. The cost of insurance has gone crazy. It’s a tough [unintelligible]. Anyway, we’ve been able to do it. Hopefully we’ll be able to do it for many more years.

Liebreich: Does the Jewish Federation put money into camp?
CARL: No.

Liebreich: Does United Way put money into camp?
CARL: It used to be, in the old days, that United Way would give us one or two scholarships. It doesn’t amount to anything. Basically it’s the board of the Men’s Camp. And, you know, we’re faced with a lot of things. Right now we’re facing a couple of hundred thousand dollars in improvements that are required. We struggle along, you know. 

Liebreich: What about the attendance at the Camp? Has it maintained itself?
CARL: The attendance has been very, very stable. At one time it was down some. It fluctuates. We lose people, what have you. We run normally between a 100 and 110 every year.

Liebreich: What’s the capacity?
CARL: Who knows? [laughs]

Liebreich: Are the synagogue camps competition? You know, the Reform Judaism and the USY?
CARL: I think – probably. Sure. I’m sure there are some. There’s competition. But you know, we all can survive. There are enough people and there’s enough kids, as far as that goes, [so] there can never be too many camps. 

Liebreich: Kids come from all over the Northwest?
CARL: Many camps have closed. Many camps have closed throughout the country because they can’t afford to maintain them. Just as many Centers have closed throughout the country for the same reason. Skokie – you mentioned Skokie. I’m told the Center there was closing and the Federation was giving them something like ¾ of a million dollars a year. They get tired. That’s a different problem. 

Liebreich: Right. I was going to ask you something about the children at Camp. The children come from all over the Northwest? And California?
CARL: And California. Did you go to camp? 

Liebreich: [shakes head no]
CARL: You never went to Camp. Many of your contemporaries did go to camp.

Liebreich: I know. 
CARL: You know, it’s a wonderful experience for a child. My kids both went.

Liebreich: My children went.
CARL: My grandchildren went. It’s a wonderful experience. It teaches them. Just like BBYO, it teaches them good citizenship, as far as that goes. And we do a lot of Jewish programming. We have Shabbat services and different things. And kids are happy, for the most part. Occasionally you get one when there’s a problem, but that’s true with anything. But for the most part, kids are happy. 

Liebreich: Okay, let’s take a break.

Liebreich: Okay, Milt, talk loud. We have to talk about Cedar Sinai Park and your involvement in that. You told me that you lived across the street from the old people’s home when you were growing up. 
CARL: Right.

Liebreich: Did you go over there to play?
CARL: No, no. I was born on Third and College, in a house, and right across the street on the corner was the old Robison Home. I was born in 1925. I can’t remember when they started. It wasn’t too long. At the time, I think there were only 10 or 11 residents. As a matter of fact, when I went to Hebrew school later on, we used to have our Friday night and Saturday services at the Home. Harold Schnitzer used to be one of those that davened. But as far as my activity at the Home, it started at Camp. I can’t remember exactly when it was, but it seems to me it was when they moved to Boundary in 1955 and built that unit there.

Liebreich: They moved directly from that place on College?
CARL: And they opened up on Boundary, where the present Robison Home is now.

Liebreich: There were no buildings in between? 
CARL: No buildings in between. I can’t give you the date, but later on they decided to… they did not have an infirmary. They had the Home, but they didn’t have an infirmary. In other words, they didn’t have what they considered skilled beds. They had a fundraising to build a wing and to start with the skilled beds. And I’m at Camp one year and I’m sitting next to Gene Nudelman, Sr. He said to me, “I need your help.” By that time I had already been somewhat in fundraising and what have you. “What can I do for you?” He said, “Well, I’m trying to raise some money for this infirmary and I know that you’ve done a few fundraisers and I need your help to help me raise some.” 

So I did. Like I say, I’m not sure; It was probably in the late 60s, but that’s just a guess. I had nobody at the Home. I knew some of the people that were there, some of the old people, but on a personal basis, I didn’t have any family there at all. Little did I realize that a few years later I would have the use of it for myself. My parents would go into the Home, especially my dad who had lost a leg, and my mother wouldn’t let him go by himself. They were there until he died, which was in 1978, so I must have got involved in the 60s or so. 

One of the committees I was involved with – I was chairman of the admissions committee. In those days we used to have an admissions committee. It’s done differently today. People would apply for admission. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to go through some difficult times – financial information, everything. Because it’s a business, you’ve got to keep the doors open. We never refused anybody. We still don’t refuse anybody, but Medicaid and Welfare pays, and what it costs for a patient is like 50 percent.

Liebreich: Let’s back up, let’s back up. You got involved in building this infirmary which was on the North side of Boundary Street, right? And that infirmary was the only facility out there that had a Home attached to it.
CARL: Yes, it had a residence.

Liebreich: There was a residence and an infirmary. 
CARL: Yes, but the residence was new, too – a new building. I think one of the major contributors to the infirmary at that time, as I recall – Jack Rosenfeld and Emory Zidell gave $100,000 to that infirmary. I’m sure there’s a plaque up there. I can’t give you the dates. I just don’t remember.

Liebreich: Yes. At the time the community opened the Home and the infirmary, was it certified for Medicaid and Medicare?
CARL: Oh, yes. No, wait a minute, just a minute. Medicaid certification has to do strictly with the infirmary – skilled beds. They don’t – they didn’t pay anything for residential. So that was built. 

So, like I say, I was chairman of the admissions committee at that time, but I was very much involved … very interested in what was going on there. I realized that that was something that the community really needed, as the community grew. Because when I grew up as a kid, how many Jews lived in Portland? I don’t know, maybe two or three thousand. Maybe 3500. It wasn’t a lot. But as the Community grew, it needed these services. As it turned, you know, until today, people didn’t live that long. So the point is this: the need for a nursing home or whatever was only a very small percentage. Because people – my own family, my uncles, when they were 60 – they didn’t live long enough [to have need of a nursing home].

The situation today: we’re going the other way. I just saw some statistics that came out with some goals for Cedar Sinai showing the residents and their age. We have three people in there that are over 100 years old. The biggest percentages – 25 percent – are over 90. People are living longer. 

Liebreich: So was it tough to raise money for the Home?
CARL: The Home, it always has [been]. Any fundraiser is not easy. The Home has more support than any other Jewish organization. How do you not support your mother and father? You take care of the elderly. I don’t know whether it’s the Fifth Commandment, Sixth Commandment. One of the Commandments says: “You shall honor your mother and father and your reward will be long life.” Now that’s the only Commandment in the Ten Commandments where they offer something in return. Think about that. Talk to your rabbi about that.

Liebreich: That’s right, that’s right. 
CARL: The point is this, that we’re able to serve a lot of people. Of course, the Home is different than what it was. In the old days, before we built the Manor, that was the place where people went and they stayed. 

[Tape stops; some of the interview may have been lost]

Liebreich: When did it dawn on you that you needed another facility?
CARL: I was president in ’82 and ’83. One of the things I said on my outgoing was, I said, “We have to build something, something that will take care of people when they don’t have to go into the infirmary. We have to build something in between.” At that time, assisted living was just in its infancy. But I’d read about it, and what have you, and so I told them, “In my opinion, we’ve got to do something.” So we bought the property across the street, and during my term we started out and built the May Apartments.

Liebreich: Okay. We haven’t talked about the May Apartments.
CARL: That was 20 units.

Liebreich: And it was funded partially by?
CARL: The May Apartments was funded partially by a gift [from] Florence May. I did not know who she was. It was gifted to the [National] Council of Jewish Women. There was $175,000, right? I was involved with it. I’m trying to remember who, now. It seems to me that Leah Nepom was involved…

Liebreich: And Carol Chestler and Elaine Weinstein and Joan Liebreich and a lot of …

[Later research showed that, of these three women, only Elaine Weinstein was involved at that time. Carol and Joan were involved in an earlier attempt to allocate the May money, which never came to fruition. Others involved but not mentioned in this interview were Evelyn Zurow, Cynthia Galton, and Rose Rustin].

CARL: [interrupts] Okay. And we negotiated with you guys, right? We would build the May Apartments; we would call it the May Apartments. It would be for independent living only and they would have their own kitchens, etc., etc. That’s how we started. It seems to me it was in ‘82 or ’83, because I was president then. Jordan became building chairman and we raised the funds necessary to build it. 

Liebreich: And that was not assisted living. That was independent living. 
CARL: Independent. Still is, still is. 

Liebreich: 20 units.
CARL: 20 units. From that it started, and I told them we have to get into an assisted living features. Anyway, so it took maybe ten years later – after all kinds of planning, demographics, and what have you – that we finally started the assisted living facility at Cedar Sinai, which was 108 units originally. That’s what came about. It’s been very successful. It’s done everything that we hoped it would do It helped – well, if we hadn’t built the assisted living, there would be no Robison Home today. That’s how much money we lose at the Robison Home, if it wasn’t for the assisted living making up for part of that deficit.

Later on we expanded it into the Shlim Wing, which was [named for] a donation that the Shlim family gave to part of it. Since that time we purchased the property next door, to the East, and which hopefully we’ll someday build [into] a new infirmary – a state of the art infirmary. I always felt it would be nice if we could have an infirmary with private rooms. Because one of the biggest problems you have is, you know, you never know who your neighbor is. You never know what kind of physical condition they’re in. You know, it’s not easy. It costs more to operate, but they’re working on a plan there now. It’s interesting. I’m looking at this picture of 1928, and I think it’s the Hebrew school. Look at the names here – there is one left that I can see.

Liebreich: It couldn’t have just been that easy. 
CARL: It wasn’t that easy at all.

Liebreich: It couldn’t have been that easy just because we think it’s a good idea to have an assisted living facility. Who did you get involved in that fundraising?
CARL: Well, we hired an outfit to do a demographic. They said that they went and interviewed the various wealthier people in town, and came back with a report that we could probably raise three and a half million dollars and this doesn’t have to be part of this…

Liebreich: You can tell the machine that you raised 10 million dollars.
CARL: Yes, and it wasn’t enough anyway. We spent over 16 million. Anyway, we still have a debt of 10 million. 

Liebreich: At the Rose Schnitzer Manor?
CARL: About 9-and-one-half million. We were able to get some bonds issued, which were tax-exempt bonds, which helped. People bought these bonds, as far as that goes, and they pay on an average around 6%. Today people are very happy with it, as far as that goes, and we pay off so much a year. It’s worked out fine. The second wing we did not bond. With the money from the Shlims, and the money we still had in the building fund, as far as that goes, we were able to pay that off without owing any. Now we just bought this property next door for around 1.8 million. We still owe over a million, but it’ll work out. There’s enough money in the community to do whatever has to be done. You’ve got to work at it. Fundraising is not easy. It’s always easy to tell the other guy how much he should give, but not everybody’s receptive. But on the other hand, we’ve got some very, very fine dedicated people. We have a good community. I think we can do anything we set our minds to do. 

At that time, when we raised that money for the Manor, I had a visit from the chairman of the Federation on campaign that year. He said, “You know I’m really concerned, you’re really going to hurt our campaign.” I said, “I don’t think so.” I said, “On the contrary, I think that you will raise more money this year than you raised before.” Sure enough, they raised more money that year. They continued to raise since that time, because people had a different mind focus. It just helped the entire situation. 

But the Manor is, you know… The people there, I mean… One thing you’re going to hear complaints about, both sides of the street, is food. Nobody likes the food. But true all over the country. My granddaughter is married to a young man whose family is involved with Calaroga Terrace and all kinds of places all over the country. So I said to him, “Jim, What’s the biggest complaint you have in there?” Food. 

But you know, there was a woman in the Robison Home one time when I’d go through it; I used to try to be there for meals at night to help my dad. There was a woman; her name was Mrs. Parnas. It was an old-time family. Some woman was complaining about the food and Mrs. Parnas said, “Look who’s complaining about the food. She had to be the worst cook in South Portland!” [laughter] There’s a lot of comedy in some of these things. 

You hope for old age with good health. Unfortunately, sometimes, you know, it doesn’t necessarily come out the way you want it to come out. You had it for a while with your dad. We all had it. It’s a matter of luck. But I think from a standpoint of – we’ve got very good staff, in my opinion. They care and that’s the important thing. My daughter works there part-time. She’s supposed to work 2-3 hours a day. I think she’s there 8 hours a day. It’s just such a satisfaction that you’re doing what you should be doing. 

Liebreich: Okay, Milt. Just to end up. I came across something that I don’t know if you have any involvement in or know anything about– the Rose City Lodge Cemetery. How did that come about?
CARL: Well, the Rose City Lodge was an organization. My parents were members of that. People had a lot of different organizations in those days.

Liebreich: It’s a service organization?
CARL: A service organization. But it was basically for [its] own members. Actually, I don’t know whether it was considered [a service organization]. I don’t know how it came about, but they bought this property for their own cemetery, just like Havurah has done and other people have done. The organization did it. So they had this cemetery, and if you belonged to this organization, with it was a free plot. And for a number of years… then, all of a sudden, the organization started to dwindle. There [were] maybe a few people that took care of the cemetery and their plots. They had some funds, so finally they decided – and rightfully so – they’ve got to make arrangements, because there’s not going to be anybody left to take care of this cemetery. As you drive into the Neveh Zedek, it’s on the right-hand side. There are a lot of people that are buried there. 

Liebreich: It’s a very large cemetery.
CARL: Oh, very large, very large. What they did is they worked out an arrangement with Neveh Shalom to take over the cemetery. The provision is that their members still have plots. They turned over all the money, whatever they had. There was a couple hundred thousand, I think, to their cemetery fund – Neveh Shalom. Now it’s all part of the cemetery. It’s still referred to, many times, as the Rose City Cemetery and many of our friends are buried there. I think it had to do with funerals. I think the purpose of the organization is to provide their own… whatever.

Liebreich: So they did the funerals?
CARL: So some people are buried there that were members of Shaarie Torah, were members of Neveh Shalom, or wherever, because their families are buried there.

Liebreich: Yes. It’s cheaper to be buried there, probably, too.
CARL: And they keep it up, too. Leonard is the chairman of the cemetery committee and they keep it up. As a matter of fact, he’s done a wonderful job in maintaining both the Neveh Zedek and the Ahavai Sholom cemetery. It improved those [unintelligible] under Leonard’s direction – [tape skips]
 
[Tape picks up again with Milt talking about the Rose Schnitzer Manor] One thing that is really wonderful is that we spent a tremendous amount of time to make it as beautiful as it is. When we finished the building, we were awarded first place in the United States in our design in this grouping, which included motels, hotels, rest homes, nursing homes, etc, etc. We received an award in New York for the design of that building. Really, we should be very proud in Portland, a little town like Portland. 

Liebreich: Who was the designer?
CARL: We used Bing Sheldon. Jordan and Ruben Menashe were the co-chairmen of the building committee. They did a fine job. We can all be proud. Like I say, when you get to that – you know, what happens is, when you get to that age, it becomes a problem not only for the person who is old, but [for] their kids. I had a call a couple of weeks ago from a friend of mine who’s an attorney. His mother’s living in Florida. He had her out here, and he took her out to show her Cedar Sinai. He said, “Milt, the reason I’m calling you – I’m thinking very much of moving my mother out here. Tell me, what’s the bad thing about it. What’s good and what’s bad?” 

I told him what I felt. Probably 20%, I would say, probably 25% of our residents are people from out of town. Their kids move and they’re left. Their husbands die eventually. They’ve got them in Florida, in Leisure World and whatever, and they don’t have anybody. So they move. What would you do if you didn’t have a place like that? So we’re doing a tremendous service, as far as I’m concerned, for the community, those that were born here and those that moved here. Anyway, he was very impressed, this fellow, one of the top attorneys in town, one of the top firms in town.