Jacques Bergman

Baer: We would like to begin with information about your family. Where and when were you born? 
BERGMAN: I was born in Vienna, Austria. My family consisted of my father, mother, and a brother who was about four years older than I. 

Baer: Their names? 
BERGMAN: Their names are Ceciel, Ignatz, my brothers name is Leo.

Baer: Can you spell those for us please?
BERGMAN: [Bergman spells them]. Ceciel, Ignatz, and Leo. 

Baer: Tell us something please, about your parents. Where they were from? what kind of work they did… [at least one more question but it is too hard to hear.]
BERGMAN: We lived in Vienna, Austria. My mother was a homemaker; my dad was a conductor for the Austrian railroad; and my brother went to school. He was a chemist. He graduated as a chemist. 

Baer: What was their religious background?
BERGMAN: We observed some Jewish holidays – most of them. We didn’t keep kosher. We observed Pesach, for example, we had two different dishes. I was a choirboy in one of the temples; so was my brother. And that was about the extent of the Jewish religion we had.

Baer: What part of the city did you live in?
BERGMAN: Was in the second district in Vienna. And mostly Jewish, but not in our street. As matter of fact, across from the, from our apartment was the unemployment department. So there was a lot of non-Jewish people around.

Baer: What was the street like in which you lived?
BERGMAN: Cobble street. Tram went by block away. We played on the sidewalk. I went to school about three blocks away. There was a Jewish bakery and Jewish delicatessen, was the only thing that was in the neighborhood. It was district between two railroad stations. One was what they called a North bound [unclear word], and the other one was…I forget the name now.

Baer: What kind of a school did you go to?
BERGMAN: I went to what they called volkschule [Baer asks him to spell it and he does], or a grade school. And the other one was the gymnasium. First hauptschule then gymnasium. So I graduated after 12 years.

Baer: What was the gymnasium that you attended?
BERGMAN: They taught Latin, which I failed. And mostly art.

Baer: What was the name of the gymnasium?
BERGMAN: Unterbergasse [he spells it]. 

Baer: At the volkschule, how many Jewish students attended?
BERGMAN: More gentile than Jewish. Very few actually.

Baer: And the teachers?
BERGMAN: Teachers all gentiles. None Jews.

Baer: At what point did you learn about the rise of the Nazis to promote Germany?
BERGMAN: Between 1933 and 1938. You could hear the speeches on the radio of Hitler. And the newspapers; that’s when you become aware of it. And the rise of the Nazi party in Austria, too. And the July Putsch in ’36, when they killed Dolfuss who was at that time the president of the…

Baer: Could you spell his name for us please?
BERGMAN: [spells it] Dolfuss. 

Baer: Let me go back for just a minute in the chronology. How did your family respond when they heard about Nazis in Germany?
BERGMAN: Well one thing is we had, my dad knew through friends, met somebody who escaped from Germany, from Berlin. He was Jewish and he was invited to our house for meals, because he didn’t have a job or anything. He came maybe twice or three times a week to our house for a meal. That’s how we were introduced actually to what was going on in Germany. 

Baer: Was your family political in any way?
BERGMAN: No, none. Except they voted, I guess. I don’t know.

Baer: And did they have political interests?
BERGMAN: No, none. Except what was going in Germany. They were aware of it.

Baer: As the Nazi party in Austria grew ever larger did you see evidence of it around you?
BERGMAN: No, none. Not until Hitler came in. 

Baer: At the time of the July Putsch that resulted in the death of Dolfuss was there any increase in Nazi activity?
BERGMAN: No, not in our district. You never saw him. And you never heard anything about…at least I wasn’t aware of it. It could have been, but I don’t know. I was still free to go anyplace and you know.

Baer: Did you, as a young child, sense antisemitism in the streets?
BERGMAN: No. No, never. Never openly. I am sure it was there, but never openly. I think we were the only Jewish people in the apartment house. And my brother had a friend who lived in that apartment house. He was also a university student. And he was (what they called them), a legal Nazi, he belonged to the Nazi party. And my brother did not know it. He came to our apartment, and his dad worked also for the railroad. That’s how we knew them. But they were very good friends, and he never knew that he was a party member until we found out after the war. 

Baer: Please tell us about the Nazi take over in Vienna.
BERGMAN: One day we heard on the radio that Schuschnigg, who was then president of Austria, made a speech and then he abdicated. The announcement was that the Germans were marching in across the border toward Vienna.

Baer: What differences did the take over make in your neighborhood and in your school?
BERGMAN: The first thing was all the Jewish people, the kids, were separated. We had to go to a different school with different teachers. And this was in March 1938. That was the first thing. The second was my dad was pensioned off because he was Jewish. And those were just about it. At that moment you know. 

Baer: Did you sense any difference in the life of the streets and in your neighborhood and in your apartment house?
BERGMAN: No. We didn’t. Not at all. The only thing was when November the 9th, what they call now Kristallnacht, came around, then in started, started out and then you could see what’s going to happen. 

Baer: What did you experience at this time?
BERGMAN: I was enrolled in a class to manufacture leather because my parents thought that I should have some kind of a training in some kind of a profession – anything that I could do with my hands. I was enrolled in one of those classes that taught leather fabrication (purses and wallets). And that was out of the district. And I usually walked from my home to the class. And that, November the 9th, when the progrom… some Gestapo came into our class and they took us to a police station until evening, after dark. Then they released us. I ran home. I literally ran home along the apartment houses, and there was a big park there; you could see cars going, Nazis in brown uniforms. And when I got home of course it was near midnight and my parents were worried. My dad, who was hiding, they came to the apartment, they came in the apartment house; they were looking for him. But he was hiding downstairs in the cellar in a coal bin. Everything was over then, he came up, and I just got home at that time, was at midnight. 

Baer: What did your parents tell you about what they experienced during the take over?
BERGMAN: They told us just only that the SA [Sturmabteilung] came and they were looking for him and he was hiding in the cellar. My brother was gone by then. A month before he had left for the United States. 

Baer: What happened in the days following?
BERGMAN: It was very tense. You could go outside (and we did), but all you saw is people in Nazi uniform. If they didn’t have a uniform, they at least had a, what do you call, a flag or some kind of button with Nazi emblem on it. It was very tense.

Baer: Did your family at this time discuss emigration?
BERGMAN: No. They didn’t. They didn’t think anything could happen. But there was talk about a children transport going to England. This was put together by the Jewish community. And they inquired about it because they wanted to send me out. But they never talked about that they are going to go anywhere, too. First of all they didn’t know where to go. They didn’t have any money. So they were talking about the Kindertransport to England. And I think the second transport they got my name in. But just two days before the transport was to be leaving Vienna to go to England, they had to take my name off because they had too many. And they had a transport that went to Holland and they put me on that. And two days later, December the 10th of 1938, I went on the Kindertransport to Holland.  

Baer: [question about his brother emigrating?]
BERGMAN: I had an uncle in New York and he had been there for 30 years. He was the brother of my dad. And he sent an affidavit to my brother to get him out. And he got the affidavit through some maneuvering in the consulate. He got out just in time before November the 9th. 

Baer: In December you went to Holland. Tell us about that.
BERGMAN: I had an aunt and uncle still in Vienna who lived about two blocks from us, was the brother of my mother. They took me to the train and I forgot the railroad station now, I know it had to go west. They took me to the train and the train took us to Holland. It was in the evening. And there was some friends on the train I knew as a choirboy. I knew a couple of them. And they were on the train, so at least there was somebody there I knew. And the next day we got to Holland to Den Haag [The Hague].

Baer: With whom did you stay in Holland?
BERGMAN: In a group home. They formed a group home and we stayed in Den Haag for quite a while. And then we moved to Rotterdam, and we stayed in Rotterdam from ’38 until the war started in 1940. 

Baer: In Rotterdam, with whom did you stay?
BERGMAN: Also in a group home, until, well all the time that when the war started in May 1940, Rotterdam got bombed and we were just about a block away where the bombs fell. And it hit our house, so we were sleeping outside for a while, and then the whole group, there were about 60 of us, moved from Rotterdam to Arnhem in a former castle that belonged to one of the royalties, and we stayed there until we got deported. 

Baer: During this time when you were in Holland, what contact did you have with your parents?
BERGMAN: I got cards from my mother. Maybe three or four, maybe more, I don’t know. And one of the cards, she was telling us that my dad was put in the labor camp, and she was supposed to meet him somewhere and then they were going to a labor camp in Poland. And I think she mentioned Minsk but I am not sure about that. 

Baer: How long did you have contact?
BERGMAN: Until… 1941 was the last I think I got.

Baer: During the time that you were in the group homes in Holland, what kinds of things did you do?
BERGMAN: I went to school. I went to an art school in Arnhem, and also I was employed, in Rotterdam I was employed in a factory where they designed oriental rugs and I became an apprentice. And then in Arnhem I went to school there and I also worked in the small place where they designed and manufactured cut-outs to hang on the walls for children’s rooms, like Walt Disney, cactus, things like that. 

Baer: Please tell us about the circumstances around your deportation?
BERGMAN: One day in 1942 I couldn’t work anymore at the place and the school closed down. So I got a job as a housemaid at a Jewish family that had two kids, two small children and I was babysitting most of the time. And so one day, I just got home (it was in the evening) from the job. There was some Gestapo men in that group home and they packed us up and took us to the school and that same night took us on the train to camp Westerbork. 

Baer: What was the train trip like to Westerbork?
BERGMAN: Was a regular train, a passenger train. And all kids were in there, and some other people. There were a lot of people, a lot of Jewish people they rounded up in Arnhem itself, and they all sent to Westerbork. 

Baer: What did the Nazis tell you about the purpose of the trip?
BERGMAN: Nothing. 

Baer: What did you and the group think?
BERGMAN: We thought we going to a camp. The rumors started that we going to a camp. We had no idea what that camp was, Westerbork. And that was about it.

Baer: Did you know other people who had been deported earlier?
BERGMAN: No, I don’t. The only thing we knew that some of the people were rounded up in Amsterdam and other cities, and some were sent to Matthausen; that we knew. The concentration camp Matthausen in Austria. And that’s about the extent of it.

Baer: During the time before you were deported to Westerbork, when you were living in the group home, did you have contact with Dutch families, or were you with Jewish families?
BERGMAN: The only contact I had were the people I worked for which was a Jewish family, Dutch Jewish family. And that was the only contact I had. The place where I worked [he means before babysitting], was…she was… they both were Christians. And since I didn’t work anymore, I had no contact with them. And at that time we were restricted because we had to wear the yellow star; we couldn’t go anywhere. 

Baer: Did people out of your group go into hiding?
BERGMAN: Yes. Some had some friends on the outside. And when the Gestapo came in they were gone. So apparently, since I wasn’t home, some rumor must have started and they disappeared so they were in hiding, yes. 

Baer: Do you know what happened to those people that went into hiding?
BERGMAN: Yes, I know some of them came back after the war, so they were OK. And they were in hiding all the time. Some were hiding in farms. The Jewish family who I was working for, the woman, her two children, she took them to some farmers in Southern Holland somewhere and so the children were safe. But they were picked up later too, both of them. 

Baer: Were they deported?
BERGMAN: Yes, they were deported. He died, I don’t know where. She spent her time in Ravensbork, in concentration camp.

Baer: Did she then return?
BERGMAN: She returned after the war, yes.

Baer: When you came to Westerbork, what happened there?
BERGMAN: We were put in the barrack. And Westerbork was started actually as a camp for refugees who came to Holland illegally from Germany. The Dutch did not know what to do with them. So they put them in a camp in Westerbork, which was in Northwestern part of Holland. A desolated area. And they put them in there. So when I got to, it was all German, German Jews. So when I got there they were in charge of Westerbork. And so anybody who spoke German or [came] from Austria or from Germany had an edge. So you get the better jobs if there were jobs available. 

Baer: What was life like on a daily basis at Westerbork?
BERGMAN: Fairly routine. Food wasn’t too bad. You had your own clothing. You lived in a barrack; you lived mostly with your own friends. Young people my age, 16, 17 at that time. I worked. I did some outside work. I was also worked in an office, doing some… what they called a runner. I run from one office to another with piece of papers and things like that.

Baer: Who were the people in charge of daily life?
BERGMAN: The German refugees in camp. They ran that camp itself.

Baer: What contact did you have with Germans? Or the Nazis?
BERGMAN: The Nazis, none. None at all. The only contact, I saw them when they start deporting to Auschwitz, that’s the only. 

Baer: How long were you in Westerbork?
BERGMAN: Almost a year.

Baer: During that time, what did you learn about what was going on with deportations in the rest of Europe?
BERGMAN: Well, each Tuesday morning there was a train going somewhere with approximate 600 people. And about that time Westerbork became a transit camp. In other words, they were rounded up Dutch Jewish, and other people too, in Amsterdam mostly because most the Jewish people were living in Amsterdam, they were rounded them up and bringing them to Westerbork. And then they transferred them each Tuesday, about 600, to somewhere. Sometimes the same train, which were cattle trains, made of cattle cars, came back and they had, might have a writing on the wall, or a piece of paper, and it would say either Theresienstadt or Auschwitz. And that’s the first, and since I was delegated at that time to clean out, (they came in on a Monday afternoon) those trains had to be cleaned to get ready for the next day, I had sometimes the job that had to clean out the cattle train and we found those notes. 

Baer: What did you know about those names?
BERGMAN: Nothing. No idea. We surmised that this was a camp, or camps. And we also knew that because of the people they called up to go on those transport, sometimes were older people who knew that they were going to Theresienstadt and that’s the only time that we started to know anything about what was going on.

Baer: Did you see the loading of trains?
BERGMAN: Oh yes.

Baer: How did that happen?
BERGMAN: There was a list came out on Monday evening. And went into the barracks and the people were called up and had to pack their things, their suitcases and they had to be ready by Tuesday morning. The people who were in charge of the barracks marched them to the train and they were loading them up on the train. They got some food from the kitchen. 

Baer: What were the responses of people who had to leave?
BERGMAN: Some were crying because some relative or friends were left behind, otherwise were very quiet. 

Baer: Were all the people who you knew were deported Jewish, or were there other people?
BERGMAN: So far as I knew they were Jewish, I don’t know, there might have been others, I don’t know.

Baer: Did anyone escape from Westerbork?
BERGMAN: Yes. It was surrounded with wire and it wasn’t electric wire. Some people escaped, they cut through the wire with shears or whatever they had handy and some did escape. 

Baer: How did the Nazis respond to that?
BERGMAN: They were looking with dogs for them but they never could find them.

Baer: What resistance organization or escape organization was there in the camp?
BERGMAN: None at all, nothing. They had quite a police force made of mostly or all Jewish. Dutch and German, young people who had a uniform and they kept order in that camp. We never saw any Nazis in camp itself in uniform except for the trains, when the trains left then they had the watch Nazis.

Baer: How did the loading of trains work? What happened when a train was loaded?
BERGMAN: There was a platform. They had to assemble on the platform. And one Nazi came along, an SS man, and said, so many people in here, so many people in here. That was it. They packed up the belongings and went in the cattle train. 

Baer: About how many people in a car?
BERGMAN: I would say about 50 at that time. 

Baer: Were there facilities for sanitation?
BERGMAN: No, there was a bucket in there, a bucket for sanitation. That’s about it. 

Baer: On the days when you cleaned the cars that came back, what did the cleaning entail?
BERGMAN: Scrubbing the floor, and that was it. 

Baer: Did you find other things besides the notes?
BERGMAN: No, no I never did. Except the notes. Sometimes names. And mostly we are in Auschwitz or Theresienstadt. Just one name, that was it. But apparently it was going to someplace else, I don’t know.

Baer: At what point did you learn what Auschwitz was?
BERGMAN: When I got there. 

Baer: Please tell us about getting there.
BERGMAN: Ok, one day my name was called up. And I had some friends in the office. And I tried to get my name taken off, but they couldn’t do it. They had to fill a quota. So I was put same way like the rest, had the little bag with my clothes, I got some food, and I was put on the train. 

Baer: What year was this?
BERGMAN: In ’43, 1943, middle of 1943, yes.
I was put on the train to destination unknown. When we got to Auschwitz, they opened the door and there was a mass of people in Nazi uniform, and people in striped uniform. And they hurried us out, and we had to stand in a single line and sometimes a Nazi, an SS man would come by and he saw some boots of one of those people and he would tell him to take it off, and he had to give it to them. 

Baer: How long did the trip take to Auschwitz?
BERGMAN: I think about two days. Two and a half days.

Baer: And about what time did you arrive at Auschwitz?
BERGMAN: It was the middle of the day. We had to stand in a singe file, single line, and filed into a building. Before that, we had to leave all our belongings in, on the outside. In other words, my bag I had a bag of clothes, and I had to leave there. And then we started filing single file, into the building. When we got in the building, there was a table there. There three SS uniform guys [were] sitting. And the guy in the middle was pointing his finger either to the left or to the right. And when he was pointing the finger to the left that meant that you were going into labor camp. If he was pointing to the right, you were going into the gas chamber. And it only took a second. Less than a second. He just looked at you, and he pointed the finger to the left, and I went to the left. And I could see on the right there was a door opening and we could see the black heads, shower heads, black shower, huge, huge black shower heads. And in the back of the SS men, there were some handicapped, mentally handicapped people sitting against the wall. Apparently they were on the same transport that we came from in Holland. And the SS were just shoving them. Every time they opened up that huge door they were just shoving them in. I went to the left. And went to a room and we striped completely. They took away any jewelry – anything you had – any clothes you had. They shaved your head. They shaved your whole body as a matter of fact. We went into another room and we took a shower. We had no towel and no soap. And then we, after that we were driven out to another barrack. And when we got to the barrack, we had to stand in line and it seemed hours we stood there, and then we got, before prisoner – I didn’t know they were prisoners – in a striped uniform, and he put a number, a tattoo number on your left arm. 

Baer: Can you read the number please?
BERGMAN: 175345.
And then they gave us some striped clothing consisting of a shirt, pants, a jacket, and two pieces of cloth, [indicates size], like a huge handkerchief and the purpose was you had to wrap it around your feet instead of socks. And they gave us some shoes. There was some shoes lined up and you had to choose one of the shoes and belt to hold up your pants. And they drove us to another barrack, and we stayed there overnight. And I don’t remember how we slept, on what we slept, no idea. This was Birkenau. This was not Auschwitz. This was Birkenau. And the next morning they came and they, we marched into Auschwitz, into a concrete building which was called Block 11. Block 11, I found it out afterwards, I didn’t know then, Block 11 was an experiment block for men. What they were doing, what the Nazis were doing, what we found out later, it was a concrete building, there was a cell, a huge cell had a window, an open window [indicates size], no glass in it, and there was a trough in the back of the wall. And what they were doing they were practicing with the guns on the prisoners with silencers. They want to see what happens. And you still, they were washing off after every time they did it, they were washing the walls off but you still could see some blood, dried blood there in those troughs. And I stayed there about for almost a week. 

Baer: During this first day, what were your reactions? What did you think?
BERGMAN: You didn’t think. At all. You were scared. You had no idea what’s going to happen. And one day, there was I believe the last day, just the fourth day, must have been the fourth day, I heard a voice across, I was standing by the window, I heard a voice and it was a woman’s voice and on the other side next to ours was Block 10. Block 10 was an experiment block for woman. And the voice called across and she recognized me; it was a friend of mine was in one of those group homes in earlier. And she recognized me and she had only a few moments determined that she is in an experiment block. And she said there were Nazis up here and they all over. And she said, “I talk to you tomorrow.” But tomorrow never came because they took us out of the block and they put us in a truck and they took us to Monowitz which was a satellite camp of Auschwitz. 

Baer: What was the name of the woman who called out to you?
BERGMAN: I don’t…It was a Hungarian name. I’m sorry, cannot remember. 

Baer: How long were you in Block 11?
BERGMAN: About five days.

Baer: What happened while you were there?
BERGMAN: Nothing. Absolutely nothing. We stood there, in that block every day at mealtime at noon, some kapo came in and selected a few to bring some food. They brought in a kettle from kitchen for soup and that was about it. And a piece of bread.

Baer: What contact did you have with other prisoners?
BERGMAN: Just the persons who were in that cell. That’s about it.

Baer: What did you learn from them about the camp?
BERGMAN: I had a friend. I got a cold, I got a little bit sick and so didn’t go out and he was selected to go to get the food and he went out and came back and he was telling that they all brick building, concrete buildings out there, lot of SS men, dogs. He saw some SS men taking movies. That’s the only thing we heard about. 

Baer: What was the kapo like?
BERGMAN: Uniformed. He was non-descript. He wore a uniform, a stripped uniform. Had a, like all prisoners, had a white piece of cloth sewed on the jacket which was a number plus what they wear…for example Jewish people had a star of David, a yellow star of David. A prisoner was in prison because of thievery or a murder, had a green triangle. And he was one of those green triangles. 

Baer: What other types of prisoners did you see?
BERGMAN: Not in Auschwitz but later on. Mostly kapos were all green triangles. There was a distinction – if a triangle was pointing upwards he was a light criminal. In other words he was a thief, or an embezzler. If the triangle was pointing downwards he was at least a murder, so he was a heavy, what they call a heavy criminal. And those people are mostly the lageralteste, which was the camp elder, I should say. Or he was a [schrieber], which was the head of the office. Or he was a [loyfer], which was the butler to a commander. And they were mostly green triangles. Pink triangles were homosexuals. Black triangles were anti-social, gypsies. Violet triangles were clergy. 

Baer: Which one of those groups did you have contact with?
BERGMAN: I had contact with green triangles. I tell you why later. And a priest and a red triangle, which was a political, which was a Communist. They were both Polish and they became friends in one of those camps, in a later camp. Not in Monowitz. 

Baer: What did you experience in Monowitz?
BERGMAN: In Monowitz I was detailed to outside, picking up paper, other material that was on the streets. Each morning had to stand outside and watch the people go to the factory, to the buna factory where they were experimenting in synthetic rubber. And each morning the march music was playing. In the evening the people came back, dragging either the dead or the sick behind them. Food once a day, soup and a piece of bread, and that was about it. 

Baer: What was a typical day in Monowitz?
BERGMAN: After the people marched out, there would go a detail to pick up papers and clean barracks and do all that. And you got contact with other prisoners in that camp, and they started to educate you very, very fast.

Baer: What kinds of things did you learn?
BERGMAN: What they were doing in buna, in the factory. What punishment is if you don’t do anything. How to behave. Who is who. Who runs the camp, which was run mostly by kapos. That’s how they educate you. 

Baer: What kind of prisoner organization was there?
BERGMAN: None, none that I know of. 

Baer: Was there any interest in escaping?
BERGMAN: No, no. The escaping was very, was punished by death – hanging. And there always was a ritual. I witness two hangings in Monowitz. What they were doing, when somebody escaped and they were caught, they brought them back. You had to assemble in the middle of the camp, the gallows was up, the music was playing – march music. The commander with all his entourage came, dressed up in their finest uniforms. And you had to, there was a ceremony of reading the sentence, and you had to march and witness the hanging around the gallows. And that was about it. 

Baer: When someone tried to escape, what was the [unclear words] for the prisoners in the block [barrack]?
BERGMAN: I don’t know, I never saw that in Monowitz. I did see it in the camp, in the next camp I went from there. But I never saw it in Monowitz.

Baer: About how long were you in Monowitz?
BERGMAN: About three weeks. 

Baer: What did you think during this time? How did your attitudes develop and change?
BERGMAN: Tried to adapt. Tried to adapt and become like a follower more or less. And don’t make any noise or anything you know. Just keep going. You became so numb; it was incredible you know. You followed instructions, you don’t think. You didn’t think. It was incredible. 

Baer: What relationships did you develop with other prisoners?
BERGMAN: I developed some very good relationship with two friends, two people. One – two older people. They were both from Vienna originally. One was living in France and was picked up and came to Auschwitz. The other one was living in Belgium, in Antwerp – he was a diamond merchant – and he was about 20 years older than I. And he was my bed partner, he was next to me in the barrack. And we became friends. We started talking, we became very good friends. And we started a group, to form a group, and that was a support actually. 

Baer: How large was this support group?
BERGMAN: First it was just the three of us. Then another one joined, one of my friends who was in the group home in Holland. He was an artist and he joined us. And then later the priest and that communist leader joined us. 

Baer: What kinds of support did you give to each other?
BERGMAN: We shared. Sometimes we got extra rations, we shared that. We kept close together; we all slept in the same area in the barrack. We talked whenever we had free time, which was very little. Maybe on a Sunday afternoon. We talked about everything except religion. 

Baer: After this time in Monowitz, then where did you go?
BERGMAN: After, one day we had to stand outside, and an SS man came along with three kapos. They still had striped, the kapos still had striped pants, but the jackets were different. One of them was a black jacket, and the other was a gold jacket, and I’ve forgotten what the [loyfers] jacket was, the butler. Two SS men – one was what they call an Unterscharfuehrer, which was a first lieutenant I guess. And they selected, out of the group, they selected people. And after the selection they put us in a truck and they took us to a camp called Laurahütte. 

Baer: What was the basis for that selection?
BERGMAN: Labor. Which was a factory and in that factory they manufactured anti-aircraft guns for the German army. The selection was about 200 people. They took us to that camp, it was completely new. It was a factory. The barrack was not wood. It was brick, a brick building. Had a large outdoor place, between the factory and the barrack. Had a fence, a brick fence with electrified wire on top on one side, and the other side just electric wire separating the SS from the camp. We were 200 people when we got there. We had to stand outside. The three kapos came along, (the lageralteste the [loyfer] and the [schrieber]) and they asked for volunteers. What they wanted to do, what the commander wanted them to do, is somebody who can make a sign that says “Beware, electric fence” in German. Two guys volunteered and after a while they came back and the kapo, the [schrieber], was yelling at them because they were lying to him. What he was asking they couldn’t do. So when I saw them coming back, I volunteered. Now, first of all, you got educated that you never volunteered for anything. Because what I saw in Monowitz people who volunteered didn’t come back. But for some reason I volunteered, I took a chance. So the kapo took me to the commander’s office. There was an outer office. He handed me a big, wooden sign that was painted white. A brush and some paint and a pencil. And he told me what to write down, “Beware, electric fence.” And I do that, and the kapo liked it. He went into the commander’s office, and the commander liked it. He said OK. And from that moment on I had a job. I did some other signs. I worked in the prison office. I made signs; I did some filings, and I became much higher than the rest of the prisoners.

Baer: What do you remember about the camp commander?
BERGMAN: He was a brute. Most of the time he was either drunk or in a rage, and sometimes he was both. And when he was in a rage and drunk, he came into the camp, we had to stand outside for no reason at all, in the middle of the night, in the daytime. Sometimes he would call in the people from the factory. They had to stand outside for no reason at all. And after this punishment, there was punishment. 

Baer: Was he SS?
BERGMAN: Yes.

Baer: What was his name?
BERGMAN: Quackernck. I think his first name was Walter.
I made some greeting cards for him. He had a family somewhere in Germany. When Christmas or Easter came along, or some other occasion, a birthday, he asked me to do – never personally, never addressed me, never – always to a kapo or another SS man in the outer office, even then it was mostly a kapo who would relay the message – and I made some cards for him. Apparently he liked them. So he left me alone. But he was a brute. He had a dog who had a habit of, every time we went out of the gate, and the inspection, every time coming back, the people coming back from the factory they were inspected to see if they had any clandestine knives or spoons, and because they were working with metal so they could manufacture it, they were taken away and they were slapped in the face. The dog had a habit of nipping on your heals every time you walked by. I got bitten a few times. 

Baer: What was your work routine like?
BERGMAN: Getting up at 4:00 in the morning, assembling outside. We grew to about 600 people in that time period. I stayed there about, oh, nine months in Laurahütte. We were 600 people, most of them after standing outside, getting a cupful or a trough-full, because our food consisted of a little bowl, there was a metal bowl that was enameled, it was about that size [indicates size]. And in the morning we had what they called coffee; it was made of red beets. We got that in the morning. And then we stood outside and waited and then about two hours later, most of them marched off to the factory. I stayed behind because I was working in the office. Some other people stayed behind that were cleaning up the barracks and doing outside work, things like this. At noon, everybody came back. They were giving us this ladle of soup, which consisted of hot water, some rotten potatoes, some turnips, sliced turnips, and maybe some meat. But don’t ask me to identify the meat. And a piece of bread which was about that size [indicates size] which was maybe a French bread, it was a dark bread. And maybe we got a piece of marmalade, which was also made out of red beets. 
Now you had a choice on that. You either could eat that bread all at once, and the soup, and wait until the next morning, or next noon. Or you could eat the soup, take your bread and put it in your pocket. But you had to be very careful putting it in your pocket, because someone would steal it. So what you did is instead of putting it in your pocket, you buttoned up your jacket and you put it inside there, so nobody would steal it. And mostly during the night you would pick at it, just to keep the hunger at a low point, you would pick on that bread and eat it. 

Then they marched back into the factory, I stayed in camp. In the evening, again there was inspection when they came back. Each prisoner was inspected for clandestine, anything they could bring in. Some of them tried to bring in because we didn’t have any spoons. We didn’t have any knives or anything. Every time we ate, and the soup, it was just like this [indicates drinking soup from the bowl], mostly slurping. And in the evening we got another portion of lukewarm coffee. And there was always a ritual in the dealing out the food. Uh, at noon the cook who was another SS man came with some help from kapos, some prisoners, and brought in a huge kettle. Then you had to line up in a single file on each side of the kettle. And the SS man would delve into the kettle with the ladle, on each side, and deal out the soup. Now, you never wanted to be the first, because the water, the hot water, was on top of it. All the good stuff, the rotten potatoes, was on the bottom. So you always tried to maneuver to be at least in the middle or in the back to get, to get the good stuff. There was always a fight. The kapos would come along, they would separate you, they would hit you, they would slap you. Then they would shove you in the front so you would get only the water. If there was anything left, because somebody was transferred out, somebody died, there was some soup left. You get a second portion. And then the kapos would come along, and he would delegate the people – you, you and you – you can have second portion. And that’s the portion we, the friends, always shared. 

Baer: Are these the friends from the group at Monowitz?
BERGMAN: Yes.

Baer: You were all moved together?
BERGMAN: We moved together from Monowitz, and in Laurahütte, that when we met the priest and the Communist leader. 

Baer: How did that group develop during the time … [unclear words]
BERGMAN: Oh there was another one; he was Czech, and he became a friend too. He was a merchant. And I don’t know, usually on a Sunday afternoon, when we had free time, inside, mostly inside, outside you were never allowed to move more than in twos because they were afraid, Nazis were afraid that something might happen. 

Baer: What kinds of work did the other men do?
BERGMAN: They were mostly working in the factory, they working on the metal drills, or other kind metal manufacturing for those guns. 

Baer: During this time, what happened to your health?
BERGMAN: I got some cold. I got over it. I stayed fairly stable. I never had an aspirin; I never had a headache in all the time.

Baer: Was there an infirmary?
BERGMAN: There was an infirmary, but once you came in, went in, you never came out. So you tried, even if you cut yourself, you tried not to get into the – sometimes you did go in to get a bandage or something – but anything more serious, you tried to stay away as long as possible. Because once you get in there, I never saw anyone come out. 

Baer: Was there any prisoner organization?
BERGMAN: No, no. 

Baer: Any type of resistance?
BERGMAN: No, no. There was one escape. Two escapes. One successful. The other one wasn’t. One was a 16-year-old Russian boy who tried to escape from the factory when they were loading one of those anti-aircraft guns. He was hiding under the tarp, and they found him, they brought him back. The punishment was hanging. They brought him back. First they took him to Auschwitz for some reason – or to Monowitz, because Laurahütte was a satellite of Monowitz – they took him to Monowitz, they brought him back into our office. And several hours later, everybody was called in from the factory. They had the gallows coming in from somewhere. We had to assemble again. There was music playing either on a record player or on a radio, I don’t know – march music. Again, the commander, in his finest uniform, white gloves, with the kapo, the [shrieber], and the other kapos and some SS watchmen, came. We had to line up; we had to watch. The kapos in back of us. Anybody who didn’t watch got slapped. We had to watch the hanging. At first, the kapo read the sentence. The SS, the commander was standing there in the uniform, white gloves, black boots, spic and span you know, everything was shining. He had a short riding, what do you call it…

Baer: A whip?
BERGMAN: A whip, yes. 
And somebody else, the kapo read the sentence, and he gave the signal to be hanged, and we had to watch. All punishment. 
The other one [the other escape] was two Polish people. Apparently they knew the neighborhood. It was near a town where we were. Was actually, was at the edge of Laurahütte, of the town, because on the other side, on the one side was an apartment house, and people could see us from that apartment house on the top floor. And those two people, apparently it must have taken them weeks. They were digging out the bricks where they were sleeping, which led to the outside. And each night they were putting it back, the bricks, they would dig out more, then put them back. And one day, when we had to stand outside at 4:00 in the morning, they were counting us; two were missing. So, right away they knew who escaped. They went outside with the dog and couldn’t find them. They must have had either help or they knew the area. But our punishment was we had to, everybody was called in from the factory, who was in there, we had to stand outside; we had to sit in a crouched position, with the hands stretched out, and we were given a stick, was about that size, and we had to sit on that stick on one, with one of the cheeks. And if you fell over, or you didn’t have your hands stretched out, a kapo would come along and he would slap you either in the face or wherever. So we learned that every time the kapo wasn’t looking, we would change the stick to the other side of the cheek and sit on that, because after 5 minutes the stick started to bore into your flesh. And sometimes you would have one hand stretched out, there were so many hands they couldn’t tell, sometimes there were two or one hand, and you would hold on to your stick and you would sit above the stick about an inch so it wouldn’t bore into your flesh. And we did that for a whole day. And they didn’t find them, so they let us go back after they gave us the evening coffee. I don’t think they gave us food that day, at all. Except coffee in the evening and they let us back in the barrack. That was the two main punishments. One time we had punishment of flogging because somebody was stealing something from somewhere, either from the factory. They brought in one of those horses and there was a long whip and one of the kapos had to – also again there was a ritual. Commander came in finest uniform – and 25 lashes for stealing, and we had to watch. 

Baer: [Question about the punishment situations.] 
BERGMAN: I would say a dozen kapos. We only were about 600 at that time, that was tops. Because people disappeared in the middle of the night. Or they died. I would say about a dozen kapos. Maybe three or four SS men, commander, somebody beneath him in charge, and then maybe one or two of them in the watchtower. That’s about it.

Baer: Who were the guards?
BERGMAN: They were all SS men for a while. They were replaced in 1944 with military people who served in World War One. And we were lucky to get one in the office who was a very small figure. He was a military man from World War One; he was assigned to the office. He had one eye injury from World War One. And he was a farmer. And since I was working in that office he never talked to me. He was afraid to. He was the only one ever spoke in a kind word. He would get packages from home and one time he gave me a small piece of cake. He would stand looking outside when nobody was around, not the commander, or anybody, period, except me and maybe someone, no just me. And he would stand by the window, he would look out, he would sort of look back to me, and he would tell me what he heard on the radio. That the Russians were moving up, for example, on the front. That the Germans were losing. And he would give me some information. 

Baer: How old was he?
BERGMAN: He was old, I don’t know. I don’t know his age, but he was a World War One veteran so…

Baer: What was his name?
BERGMAN: No, sorry. I wish I knew. There was another one, who was tall. He was the leader, or he was the commander, also a World War One veteran, of the people that took the people into the factory, he was the commander of that. And he had some kind words to say to us once in a while. 

Baer: [Question about what the kind words were?]
BERGMAN: Get in line, give commands, you know straighten out, get in line. Wouldn’t yell like SS always yelled. Didn’t matter what. 

Baer: Kapos?
BERGMAN: Kapos yelled, especially if SS were around. There was some good kapos and there was some bad one. There were some Jewish kapos, behaved very well. There was some bad ones. They yelled when there were SS around. But most of the time they uh…

Baer: [Question about if the kapos stayed the same during his time in camps]
BERGMAN: Yes, except towards the end of 1944. At that time, the, it came from the SS itself, the kapos who were mostly criminals, had a choice. They would commute their sentences if they join up in the army. And what they did, they were given the choice to join up. The sentence was commuted, but they had to join and go to the front, to the Russian front. And there was one kapo who joined up, there were several of them who did, and there was one kapo and he was saying “he wont see me at the front.” And he joined up and I never saw him again, I don’t know if he did or not. But some of them got out. 

Baer: Would you like to take a break?
BERGMAN: Yes.