Harry Friedman

Kettler: I would like for you to start by telling us the place of your birth, your full name, your birthdate and your address if you remember it.   
FRIEDMAN: Ok, my name is Harry C. Friedman now. Formerly I was Chaim Friedman. I am born in Warsaw August 7, 1918. I have a brother and two sisters. Now I have only one brother and one sister. And my parents and the one sister died in ghetto, in Warsaw. 

Kettler: Do you remember the address of your street?
FRIEDMAN: Yes. [he gives it in Polish].

Kettler: Could you spell that?
FRIEDMAN: Yes. Plac Zelaznea Bramy 6. 
I went to a Jewish private gymnasium, just like here the high school. It’s a little more than high school, it is like high school and one year. No, excuse me. I went to high school and to like one year of college. Yes, it’s the same. What to say next?

Kettler: Who else was in your family?
FRIEDMAN: My family was my brother and two sisters. And my parents. 

Kettler: Older or younger?
FRIEDMAN: I was the youngest in the family. 
My parents had a wholesale business of toys and we lived in Warsaw until 1934. In 1934 we moved to Gdynia [he spells it], which is a port on the Baltic Sea. It is close to the Danzig territory. The Danzig it was between east Prussia and Germany, ok?

Kettler: Before you moved from Warsaw, when you were young, was your family religious? Were they involved in Jewish life? 
FRIEDMAN: They were average lets say. We were kosher and we observed all holidays.  I wouldn’t say especially religious but average. 

Kettler: And in your neighborhood? 
FRIEDMAN: Was a Jewish neighborhood. 

Kettler: Was it a house or an apartment?
FRIEDMAN: Apartment. In Warsaw people lived in apartments. Nobody lived in houses. People lived maybe in villas, you know outside of Warsaw. 

Kettler: What about your grandparents?
FRIEDMAN: My grandparents, I still had a live grandmother which was the mother of my father. She was still alive when I left Warsaw. 

Kettler: And the others?
FRIEDMAN: The others were, well, so I had some aunts from my mothers side that were still alive and a lot of cousins and uncles in Warsaw and in other places. And in Paris. 

Kettler: Did your father and mother grow up in Warsaw also?
FRIEDMAN: Yes they were all born in Warsaw. 

Kettler: And your grandparents?
FRIEDMAN: All of them from Warsaw. 

Kettler: The three grandparents, are they buried in Warsaw?
FRIEDMAN: Yes, all of them are buried in Warsaw. 

Kettler: You mentioned that you went to a private Jewish school. Until what age?
FRIEDMAN: Until I was 17 and a half, or about that when I finished. 

Kettler: So you had Hebrew studies and Jewish studies?
FRIEDMAN: Yes, a lot of Hebrew and Jewish.

Kettler: And after that, the gymnasium?
FRIEDMAN: This was the gymnasium, it was a private school altogether like here at public school. It’s a continuation. It was another system in Poland at that time. 

Kettler: I see. Was your family involved in any political activities in Warsaw?
FRIEDMAN: No. I won’t say political. I know that my father was involved in a charitable like here the Robison Jewish home and so forth and so on. This too I remember. I was just 21 years old when the war started so I wasn’t very active and I was employed. I was in my father’s business. 

Kettler: So what happened in 1934?
FRIEDMAN: ’34 or ’39?

Kettler: Well you said in 1934 the family moved? Why?
FRIEDMAN: Why? We move because the business was not anymore so good. Before we could buy from Germany the toys, and the Polish government put so much tax on Polish toys it was impossible. So we had to buy toys locally. Since we buy locally, which were produced in Poland, the profit wasn’t so good. So my father decided to move to another town and to change the line of business. And in Gdynia we had a whole business of hats for women.

Kettler: When did you first begin to hear about Hitler?
FRIEDMAN: About Hitler? In 1933 when Hitler came to power. 

Kettler: And what was the reaction of your family?
FRIEDMAN: Well the reaction was, how to say, we were I wouldn’t say afraid but we are thinking this is danger. Especially with later the refugees from Czechoslovakia when a part of Czechoslovakia was invaded by the Germans, then a lot of refugees started coming to Poland. And a lot of people from Germany who were not citizens, I mean huge people were deported back from Germany to Poland. So even we had some relatives and friends who came back to Poland from Germany.

Kettler: When your family moved, did everybody go? Your brothers, sister?
FRIEDMAN: Yes, everybody but I still stayed with relatives because I didn’t finish the school. I came later. 

Kettler: You came when you were 17?
FRIEDMAN: When I finish school, I came two years later. They moved in ’34 and I finish in ’36. 

Kettler: So you were still in Warsaw up until 1936?
FRIEDMAN: Yes. 

Kettler: What was the situation like for Jews then?
FRIEDMAN: It was never good in Poland, the situation. We always felt that we are Jewish and we were always in danger. And we were so far in danger that you couldn’t, the last four or five years, you couldn’t walk freely in the district where just Poles were living, not Jews. Very dangerous. And when you opened the paper you could see 30, 40 Jews each day were molested or beaten up by Christians in many ways. 

Kettler: Were you afraid?
FRIEDMAN: I was afraid but this is when we were used to it. It was daily life, we knew about it. And we saw it. 
I had a cousin in Warsaw and she was sitting in a park on a bench with her husband and they both didn’t look Jewish at all. And some hooligans, some Poles they went by and looked at their faces and said, “Oh, no they are not Jewish” and went by. But after they passed the cousin said, “Oh, they didn’t recognize us.” And one of them heard this so they came back and put the knife in his back and the cousin was long time in the hospital until he recovered. 

Kettler: Can you think of any other examples like that of people that you knew?
FRIEDMAN: Close to me? Well there were the anti-Jewish demonstrations, which we saw when we stood on the balcony. So we saw that they were arresting demonstrators and put them in the house where we were living. This other kind of house, in Warsaw it is such an entrance with a door and it is a lot of room that a lot of people can gather. And after an hour or two when it was quiet on the street they let them go. They didn’t arrest them actually. They took them just to show the people that they were arrested but they didn’t arrest them. They let them go free, this I saw. 

Kettler: Did you family ever talk about leaving Europe, or leaving Poland? 
FRIEDMAN: Yes and no. My brother, my older brother left Poland with the illegal aliyah to Palestine in 1939 because his wife was already in Palestine, so he went. There was no Israel at that time, it was Palestine. This illegal aliyah.

Kettler: How did he get there?
FRIEDMAN: He got on a ship to Romania and the ship sank. You don’t know this story? And they went to another ship, all the illegal people, and after I don’t know a month or so they landed in Haifa and the Haganah took them even though at night and put them in different kibutzes that the British couldn’t find. This was in 1939. [I think this is in reference to the SS Patria sinking that was carrying a lot of Jewish refugees. The British bit – I think they were deporting the refugees because of a lack of entry permits so they had to hide from the British? But the Haganah was British?]

Kettler: Did your father and mother talk about leaving?
FRIEDMAN: Yes and no, as I said. Because you know it was not so easy. I had a sister which married and they lived in Gdynia too and he was preparing to leave for Australia and he had already his papers, his permit to Australia. And during the war, when he was free already, I will tell you later this story, he was in Lithuania together with me, when he went to the British consulate and showed that he couldn’t show up because the war, he came later, they didn’t let him go because the permit was expired. They didn’t give him the visa to Australia even you know they knew the conditions why he didn’t take his visa because of the war, but they didn’t let him go to Australia. So they went to Palestine later.

Kettler: And again, your mother and father, did they think about leaving, did they try to leave?
FRIEDMAN: I really don’t think so. It is not easy you know. You are born over there, you have family of relatives, I don’t know how to explain it. Really to leave the country, no. My brother yes was thinking and my sister and her husband, but not my parents. 

Kettler: Did they know other people who left?
FRIEDMAN: Oh sure they know people. I had kids with whom I went to school who went to the United States in the ‘30s. 

Kettler: Did you ever think about trying to leave?
FRIEDMAN: At that time? I wanted to go to Israel, to Palestine. I wanted to go but somehow didn’t work out.

Kettler: So when you finished school you went and joined your parents?
FRIEDMAN: When I finished school I started to work in my parents business.

Kettler: With the hats?
FRIEDMAN: Sure, yes, with the hats that’s right.

Kettler: And then what happened?
FRIEDMAN: Oh what happened. Happened is that in 1939 was the business so good, too good, and my father was a very smart business man and told us it’s going to happen something bad. We couldn’t understand this. He was right. This was in 1939. The business was so good as never before. We knew the conditions in Poland but the business was good and usual so my father said something is going to happen. War or no war or whatever, but something, and it happened. 

And I have to mention something too – where we lived was on both sides less than 20 miles to the German border. If you remember Germany before had east Prussia and Germany and Poland had between the corridor such a small territory why the whole war started about Gdynia and Danzig. You probably know about it. So the trend against Jews was so that they didn’t want to have Jews. They didn’t like Jews at all in Poland lets say. They could, you know, say they don’t like you here. So people who had businesses and lived over there were living like on the Vulcan/fulcrum [??]. People received in 30 days had to leave and the reason was you are not a good element to live close to the border and nothing else. You couldn’t do anything. You couldn’t go to nobody. You had to leave. If you had a business or you lived over there, finished. And our friends, I know a lot of people maybe five or eight families that had to leave Gdynia because of it. This was in 1939, everything. 

Kettler: What happened to your father?
FRIEDMAN: Ok, my father was the last one who stayed because my sister, my mother, my second sister, and even I had left five days before the war started with the Germans. I left to Warsaw because everybody said that in Poland, in Warsaw we would be safe. And my father didn’t want to go so he stayed with the business. And so what I know because my father came later to Warsaw was that the Germans came have to give the keys and just to take the coat and go. Nothing, you couldn’t take anything. 

Kettler: Tell me who went to Warsaw.
FRIEDMAN: My mother and my sister and her child went to Warsaw. Everybody thought you know Warsaw would be safe. And really tens of thousands people from all over Poland from the small places went to Warsaw. 

Kettler: How about your grandmother?
FRIEDMAN: She was living in Warsaw.

Kettler: She was still in Warsaw?
FRIEDMAN: She was living in Warsaw. 

Kettler: So you went?
FRIEDMAN: I was the last one, I left maybe five or six day, I cannot say exactly before the war started to Warsaw. But everybody of us was staying in another place with relatives. 

Kettler: How was that decision made?
FRIEDMAN: It was very difficult because nobody thought that Poland would lose the war in such a short time. We didn’t believe that we would lose the war because we had Great Britain and France you know to help Poland. We never know such a thing could happen so quick. So my father was the one who stayed, the last one. And he was arrested by the Germans and somehow got free and came to Warsaw too. 

Kettler: And what happened?
FRIEDMAN: Oh, what happened. On the sixth day, and now I am talking about myself, on the sixth day of the war, the radio in Warsaw said continuously, “All men who are able to join the army to leave immediately the city to walk and they will be put in the army or other units. Just to leave the city east of Warsaw.” So all men in my age and even older started to leave homes. The situation was that at that day, six o’clock or five o’clock in the morning was terrible. People didn’t know what to do, people crying and running in all directions. So I saw my mother a day before but I even didn’t have the chance to go to say goodbye because everybody of us was sleeping in another place, in another part of the city. So I left with my brother-in-law’s brother. Because I was sleeping over there. And we decided we were going to see what was happening. Everybody thought that its temporary, you know just temporary. So when we reached the bridge, because Warsaw is on two sides of the Vistula you know, a river flows through Warsaw. So we had to cross a bridge. When we came to the bridge, he said to me, “No. I am going back, I have a wife and a child” and he went back [crying]. And I started walking alone. What I have with me, well I had some money, cash. Along with the cash, the cash was not so good because they didn’t want to take Polish watches. You have to have only silver, silver watches to wear. I had some paper money too but not much. And I brought something to eat. I took with me a pajama and a small bag and a razor and so I start walking. 

This came later but I will tell you when I was sleeping and I put the bag under my head as a pillow when I woke up was gone so I had nothing. But this was a little later, a few days later. So we walked and walked and everybody was walking and the military and the police, everybody was running in one direction. Just east. There was no place to go to the army because the army was running away too. And the first day was not so bad but the next day…

Kettler: Where did you spend the first night?
FRIEDMAN: Night? On the field. Yes, that was the first night. The second day when we walk the Germans came down so close that we could see the face of those pilots. So a lot of people got killed [choked up]. But who wasn’t killed and who wasn’t injured, walked. 

Kettler: They fired from the planes?
FRIEDMAN: No with machine guns. Yes, because they were very low. 

Kettler: And they just fired randomly?
FRIEDMAN: Yes. You know people, you have children, people, military equipment all together, mixed up, people back and forth, but mostly only one direction. 

Kettler: People right around you were killed?
FRIEDMAN: No I met people. I went by myself since he went back, my relative. So I was walking myself. But I met people, all these Jews, from all over. 

So the second day, after this was happened, the people decided to walk at night, to at day all to be in the forest to hide, and to walk at night. And it was started. But meantime, not everywhere, the Germans started to put small fire bombs to make the fire. Generally speaking we, I say we because everybody has the same, we were very good treated by the Jews all over. You know with food or lets say you know with sometime with where to sleep. It wasn’t a problem, if not you know we took carrots or apples what we found because people didn’t want to sell or they run away also. And so we are walking and walking. So what is next? We tried to first, a real big place, we tried to cross the next river and to go to [place] and I did it. 

Kettler: Where or how did you cross?
FRIEDMAN: Well normally. We knew that the Germans are already very close to us. One episode which I remember which is maybe interesting. When we are walking and terribly tired so we saw a farmer with his wife and he had a horse and buggy. But the horse was almost like dead. So we told him listen we will give you money can you take because in the meantime I met other people we give you some money, take us? He says, you see the horse is dying, how can I do it. But he wanted the money so he said ok. You know what, I will take you but one or two has always to run, so you change. So this went on maybe three, four hours, so you see everyone of us run because we were changing. So we’re so tired. I just wanted once, I don’t want to eat, I don’t want to drink, I just want to relax for a few minutes because when I went you know to relax on the buggy it took maybe 10, 15 minutes, I had to run again. And now comes the next. 

When we stayed in a place with the farmer it was a lot of Polish military personnel and equipment and horses, a lot of horses. So finally a Polish sergeant comes to us and he say you want to buy a horse, I can sell you a horse. With a horse it could be better. So how much you want for the horse, 50 dollar lets say, so we gave him the 50 and we have a horse. We have now two horses, it is no problem, no one has to run. We are happy. After 10, 15 minutes a military patrol, like MP… and the horses from the military had the numbers from the military so you can recognize the horses. So they knew exactly, on the side of the horse they burned out the number, so we had to give the horse back and the officer was so excited and took out a pistol and said, “Now you listen you Jews, now is no time but after the war we will know what to do with you.” The Polish officer, so this is what I remember today. 

Kettler:  How many of you were there in your group?
FRIEDMAN: Five people all together. 

Kettler: And these were people you met?
FRIEDMAN: Yes, what I met. I never knew before, just when we are walking. 

Kettler: And all men?
FRIEDMAN: Yes, they were all men, yes. So I don’t know when we reach the [word] somehow people said not to go straight but to go more to south. I don’t know why everybody said to go south so we started to go south too. 

Kettler: Where did you think you were going? What were you trying to do?
FRIEDMAN: To the Russian border. We didn’t know, nobody knew that the Russians are coming at that time. Because the Russians came I think around ’17, ’18, or ’16 so I don’t remember the date when they occupied Poland. And we started to go more east but more south and we went south. And around I think there was a holiday, I don’t know if it was Yom Kippur or Rosh Hashanah, anyways the Russians came and that was all. So I was under Russian occupation. 

Kettler: What do you mean they came?
FRIEDMAN: Occupied, occupied the Polish part of Poland because the Russians took half of Poland and the Germans took half of Poland. According you know to the agreement. There was not more a Poland, they were the Russians. 

Kettler: Where were you when this happened?
FRIEDMAN: I was in a place a village [names it in Polish?]. I was at that time when they came. 

Kettler: With the same?
FRIEDMAN: With the same group, yes, with the same five. Exact I cannot say because people came and went but we always were four or five people together so you know to make it easy. It was ok when you know to ask Jews if we can sleep or so with only about three, four, five people together. We slept on the floor you know and so on and so on. 

Kettler: So what happened when the Russians came? What happened to you?
FRIEDMAN: What happened to me, you know, was already we didn’t know is it good or is it bad. But we saw that people in the first few days, especially working people, Jewish working people, who were socialist or communist suddenly they became big shots. They helped the Russians and I don’t know what happened to those people but it was an entirely different situation. We just at that time we started to think, what was on my mind, when I was able to go to back to Warsaw and to see what is with my parents. 

So I started to go, a lot of people went back to Russian town, Bialystok, this is very important, this is a place…[interrupted to have him spell it – he spells it Bialistok but maps spell it with a ‘y’]. And we knew that a lot of people from Warsaw, especially are at that time in Bialystok. So there were so many refugees people were sleeping really on the streets. So in the center of the city you hardly could walk by. And we immediately went to what was the Jewish community lets say and we saw thousands of people and there were names of people one was looking for the other lets say and so I start looking too and somehow I put my name too. I put my name, next day I came there was a relative of my sister-in-law. I didn’t know the woman at all and she immediately took me to her and I was staying over there. I was staying over there for a short time and I said no this is not an idea, I have to go to Warsaw back. 

Kettler: Tell me the date. What date do you think it was around?
FRIEDMAN: Already October. In October, the first part of October, maybe the first week. I changed my clothes as a farmer not to look like and that’s what I have a watch and what I have something with me I left with the people and I went to the border to go back to Warsaw.

Kettler: How far were you from Warsaw?
FRIEDMAN: I really cannot say, maybe 180 kilometer or so I really don’t know. But the Russian German border was at the town [name] what I said before. This was the border between them. I didn’t go over there. I was advised to go to another small place where it is easier to cross. But I went and so many Jews were coming already who crossed from Warsaw they said not to go because they are beating up, they are killing Jews. And I got so scared, I don’t know, so scared even I wanted to come to Warsaw. I know I was so nervous, if I was hit by a German or something I couldn’t you know take it. I would have to do something to hit him too so I decided not to go and I went back and I stayed with the family. I stayed with the family. Meantime you have to make a living too so I started a little business. You know we go from one place to another you buy something here and you sell at the other place, you exchange just to have what to eat. 

But I wanted to see my parents, you know what it is. So I came in contact with people, Christians not Jews, who were smuggling people to the Russian side. So I gave the address where my sister and her husband were. And I told them so and so gave them the paper and you will come over there and you will get money. And I am here and if they want to come they can come to me. They went to Warsaw and they really wanted to leave because they had the permit to Australia, which I told you, the papers. So after a week or few days they made ready and wanted to come to the Russia to come to me. Both of them, my sister and the child and the husband, they all didn’t look Jewish at all. 

Kettler: How old was the child?
FRIEDMAN: Two and a half years. So when it came to the border by the time in the beginning the people who lived on the other side, not Jews, could go easily. So when they came to the border my sister and her husband they put the Christians left, you know, and the Jews, and after a while they let them go, so my sister with her husband with the child came to Bialystok. At that time I wasn’t there because I left Bialystok to another place to make a few dollar to bring something. And I came home and my sister and her husband and the child were there [chuckling]. Can you imagine? All will live in one small room, the room was so small I don’t know [laughing]. 

Kettler: You were very happy to see them?
FRIEDMAN: Sure. 

Kettler: What about your parents?
FRIEDMAN: Were in Warsaw. My parents and sister was. 
So now he wanted as soon as possible to be free, to obtain his visa to Australia. And so we got free and not to be with the Russians together. So he was the first one, he left and smuggled himself to Lithuania, to Vilna. 

Kettler: How did he do that? 
FRIEDMAN: From money you could do everything. You are arrested, not arrested, but he went. And we were waiting. Waiting maybe two, three weeks; after three weeks the smugglers came for us, for my sister and me. So we had to go. 

Kettler: Tell me what the smugglers looked like. What were they, men?
FRIEDMAN: Men, Christians. Like farmers, you know, but they knew they had you know from one village to the other because this was the Russian side this was Lithuania and they knew people were and they knew when the patrols go by and where is the place you can go. I have to add the winter was very heavy winter, was snowing, was very cold in ’39, ’40. But we went. 

Kettler: What month is this now?
FRIEDMAN: December. December ’39. And we went. We went first by train and after train we went to Lida, from Lida we went to a small village and from there we had to walk. 

Kettler: Did you have papers?
FRIEDMAN: Papers!? Everything was illegal, who had papers?

Kettler: Did they give you fake papers to get through or just?
FRIEDMAN: Nothing, I was still on the Russian territory. I didn’t need. I forget to tell you, in meantime when I was in the Russian territory, I immediately destroy my military documents because when they saw a military document your life was not worthy because they told you, you are this, and you are that, you are officer, you are bourgeois you are Jew, no Jew. So everybody had to destroy, that’s what we did. 

Ok, we came to the border, close to the border and was a very nice night, the moon was shining and somehow something went wrong and two Russian guards arrested us. Arrested us and we start speaking Yiddish and one guy spoke Yiddish. So what could be better? So we started him you see we are Jews we want to go other side and the guy say ok but you give me money what you have. So everybody gave him money. Now listen what happened. It wasn’t just we, there were other people in the group too, maybe together 20 people altogether because this all was organized just to cross the city with the two Christians who were you know who had to bring us on the other side. 

He took us to a small village and he said we will not walk. Why we have to walk, I will show you the way because no one is here and we will go on the other side. So the Polish farmer started you know, “Jesus Christ you know what he said to me he said to me to bring you to the military to the headquarters, not to the border.” And this was a Jew and not a Jew, two people you know the guards. So he just wanted to arrest us. And he told us a moment, in a time when he told us, so a few people start running away. And they start shooting, nothing happened but one or two disappeared, young people. So we all were arrested, my sister, the child, and I was arrested. Men separate, and the women. So now we all thought we bribed him and this is very dangerous and we said we would say that he said to us to give him what we have the money that he will carry this…you don’t have to have…you know we didn’t know what to do because we already bribed him. He already came and he put all the money what everybody gave, he gave the money to the officer, to the commandant. So I was interrogated and I was in a separate place and my sister. The child and all others. We were maybe eight days. 

Kettler: What did they ask?
FRIEDMAN: What they ask? Why we are doing this, why we are leaving Russia. Some of them decide asking some political questions, they always wanted some political stuff to know. And my sister’s husband was meantime on the other side in Lithuania and he was waiting for us and he knew already what’s happened, that the people were arrested. So after a week we got free. We got free.

Kettler: How did they treat you?
FRIEDMAN: You can imagine. When you went to restroom you were always with a soldier, you couldn’t go to the restroom alone. 

Kettler: Were you beaten?
FRIEDMAN: No. Not beaten but we were cold, we were sleeping on the floor, you know. 

Kettler: Food?
FRIEDMAN: Food, not good. We were not hungry but you know how it is you arrested we didn’t have a lunch like here you go for lunch. 

So after a week we had to sign papers say we never come back and he said if we catch you once again you could go to Siberia so everybody was afraid. And we went to the nearest village to rest and from there we see what to do. 

Meantime my sister’s husband he was on the other side. And he knew from the smugglers all were in connection you know what is happening. So we were waiting over there to see what’s happened. We didn’t go to the border. A few days later, a knock on the door and two people come [crying] with my sister’s photo, you know they went from home to home. He was on the other side. So we had the smugglers again, next day we dressed again completely as farmers. I was the one who was you know, instead of him I had to do everything with the horse. You know the people don’t know with the Russians at the time a stranger and we really came to Lithuania. We came to Lithuania on the other side all that was small place Jews were, but from Lithuania when we are on the other side you have to come to Vilna. What to do? So a bus goes to Vilna. So the smugglers were also in connection all for money, all cost money. So I had to be like assistant of the guy who sells the tickets for the bus so that got me recognized. And my sister with the child like all other went to the bus and so we came to Vilna. In Vilna we stayed, it’s a lot to say, but we stayed until we left Vilna. 

Kettler: How long?
FRIEDMAN: My sister and the child and the husband, they left in December 1940. And I left in the first few days of January ’41. I think around 12 or 11. 

Kettler: You were there for a year? 
FRIEDMAN: Yes.

Kettler: What did you do there?
FRIEDMAN: Ok, business [laughing]. Again, with what Jews doing, we tried to do something, you are laughing…you have to eat. I didn’t have a profession because you know we all with businesses. Nobody in our family, from both sides, there were no people with professions, all were in small business. We had a bigger business, but always was a business. 

Kettler: What kind of business did you do?
FRIEDMAN: Ok I will tell you. There were two things. We got he connection with one who, I wish I could say this in English, you know when you shoot a bow and arrow, when you practice, you have to have on the wall the rounds, you know, to…

Kettler: Target?
FRIEDMAN: Targets, yes. This was on paper, this was a guy who was delivering to the Polish army and somehow he came and he had a lot of this paper. There was very short paper, there was not paper available. So we took from him the paper and I was going from store to store and selling this paper. So we made a living, this was number one. A little later we had connection with a factory, with gloves. And you know whoever had merchandise didn’t want to sell it regular, so they sold it through people because could have a better price on the black market. And I remember that I was selling on the street and the Russians bought five, 10 pairs, how many they had the money they bought because you know the Russians at that time they didn’t have gloves, they didn’t have anything, they were very poor. So we had to make a living. 

Kettler: Where were you living?
FRIEDMAN: I was living in Vilna [street name] 17. I was living, we were together living because I left later and we were together and this was the head of the post office in Vilna. We rented a room from him. 

Kettler: And your brother in law worked with you?
FRIEDMAN: No, I wouldn’t say worked. He had a lot of connections and he was actually busy with preparing and going back and forth to the British consulate and sending telegrams and so on and so on to be able to obtain the visa. But he couldn’t so since he had the money in the Anglo-Palestine bank before the war, he could get the visa to Palestine. A legal visa he got, because he had a few thousand pounds. 

Kettler: So he couldn’t go to Australia?
FRIEDMAN: No, they wouldn’t let him. It was expired you see. They know there was a war and he couldn’t but they didn’t let him in. 

Kettler: Did you hear anything about the rest of your family?
FRIEDMAN: Oh that’s what I want to tell you. At that time we heard a little, we knew that this is bad but it’s not as so it got later. What we did we sent through the mail and we made, lets say, money transfer. You know give here the money and people pay in the other country. There was such a connection so we could give the money in Vilna and they received money in Warsaw. But this was done only twice. We didn’t have more connection, we couldn’t do this. But once in a while I think once in a month or two months I don’t remember was allowed to send them coffee, tea, such small packages, this what we did.

Kettler: Did you hear about your family, if they were ok? 
FRIEDMAN: They never were ok. They couldn’t be ok because everybody was already a war refugee. Everything what we had was left in Gdynia and everybody was just you know living with relatives, so how could this be ok?

Kettler: They were alive?
FRIEDMAN: Yes, they still were alive. 

Kettler: Tell me what happened then.
FRIEDMAN: What happened then. Meantime everybody tried to find a way to leave Russia, Lithuania, because Lithuania was meantime occupied again by the Russians. You probably know in 1940 the Russians occupied all Lithuania again and made it as one of their own districts. So we tried to leave soon as possible in all available consulate. So there was for two dollar was a possibility for a short time to receive a permit, a kind of a visa, actually was not a visa like a permit to go to Curacao. 

Kettler: Near South America?
FRIEDMAN: Yes. And who got this was a lucky person, like I. 2,000 people were like I who got this kind of paper. When you had already this visa on your document you applied for a Japanese transit to go to Japan. And the console in Japan gave you a visa. The authorities in Tokyo told them not to give visas, to close the consulate. And he was so humanitarian and he without any question put the visas on the paper. By having the two visas we applied for exit visa from Russia. 

Kettler: Who is we?
FRIEDMAN: All people who had this kind of paper which I had.

Kettler: But not your sister?
FRIEDMAN: My sister? My sister was already preparing to go to Palestine through Romania. 

Kettler: Your brother, your other brother was…
FRIEDMAN: Since ’39 was already in Palestine, he was married in Palestine. And she went from Vilna, she went to Romania, Palestine. 

Kettler: And the other sister was still in Warsaw?
FRIEDMAN: In Warsaw. Yes. 
So now I applied for the visa. Applied for the visa and they started to work to give the visas 10 o’clock in the evening and it went on until two, three, five o’clock in the morning. But always at night. So there was a list and you went you are on the list, ok, if not you didn’t. It took maybe three, four weeks I was on the list but on the list was written instead of Friedman, Chai, was written Friedman Chaim. So my friends told me what could be Friedman Chai, Friedman Chaim maybe yes, maybe not. 

Now to the visa it was not allowed to have American dollars because it was for foreign currency they could send you to Siberia and so on, but over there you have to pay in dollars. Without questioning, they didn’t question you have to bring five dollar and that was ok. They didn’t ask from where you have, they took the five dollar. Roubles you cannot pay for the visa, only dollars. So I went and when I went you know when I was already in his room when they called me I was the next to go in, I saw already my papers on the desk, so I recognized. So I didn’t say a word and took maybe five or 10 minutes and I got all papers and I have everything now. I have two visas and a transit visa. 

Kettler: In what name?
FRIEDMAN: Chaim Friedman. 

Kettler: Where did you get the dollars?
FRIEDMAN: Dollars? Where Jews get dollars, what a question [laughing]. We couldn’t leave without dollars [laughing], the other money was not worth much. 

So and now it goes again something. I was supposed, like everybody else, to go to [intourest?]. [Intourest?] it is a Russian tourist bureau for photo image and you have to pay them only in dollars. But our people found out a way that we can go for roubles. And you know the difference between roubles and dollar was like five, 10 to 50 dollars or 30 dollars. Such a difference. 

Meantime my sister send me from Palestine, she knew I would have to go you know I have receive the visa if everything goes good so she send me 120 dollar, but in pounds, in English pounds. I didn’t know about it but I knew from our friends that it is a possibility because people left before me already for Japan how to manage to go for roubles not dollars. Because roubles everybody had you know we had to make a little business to live or something. So I was glad I have not received the money. And I left although I was exactly knew how to go and I will tell you something very interesting. When I went to the first place from Lithuania to the Russian border they told me when the train stops go and say I want a ticket and put so and so money. With anything, don’t say anything, give money for the ticket and put up a lot of money as a bribe. So the person who is over there they know already if we get the tickets they won’t ask anything. 
So this was the first thing. 

So I was already on the train, by myself, I had luggage, something to eat, and so with one suitcase and I came to the first one was to Minsk. I could buy only a ticket to Minsk. In Minsk they told me, my friends also, you do the same, they even said to which window to go, to which window you know there are more windows and do the same so you can buy a ticket to Moscow and this is what I did. 

On the train station where you wait outside I met two officers, both were Jewish. And he asked me in Jewish where is the Jew going. And I told him to the United States. To one of them to the other what you thinking? He is meshugah, what he talking? Because they didn’t know that people can leave Russia. They thought, you know they didn’t discuss with me too much. They were not high officers because at that time were a lot military personnel in Russia, a lot after while. And he gave me a shake my hand, one of them, and told me go l’chaim treven shalom. You understand what this mean, you know what this mean.

Kettler: You can say on the tape what it means. 
FRIEDMAN: No, what mean go l’chaim treven shalom, you know? It’s a blessing, a Jewish blessing. 

Kettler: Something about going in peace?
FRIEDMAN: Yes. So I board the train to Moscow. 

Kettler: How long were you on the train?
FRIEDMAN: I think only the night, from Minsk to Moscow. But now it’s the best thing what is going to happen to me again. It is unbelievable. 

They come in to check the ticket, papers, you have to, because when you go in Russia, from one city to the other, not 20 miles or 10 miles, but when you go bigger distance, you have to have a special permit because you couldn’t change in Russia a place where you live. So they take my papers and see already I am not a Russian. He already calls two other people from the train to take my luggage and they speak in Russian and they thought that I don’t understand because I speak Russian too, and say that he is a foreigner. He shouldn’t be in the third class. He has to ride only the first or second class. And they take my luggage and put me in a compartment with a Russian general. [Laughing]. 

And outside is a soldier and the soldier has a samovar where they cook the tea. The Russians drink a lot of tea. And he was watching the general and he was and I am here. You know the Russian general saw already that I am a foreigner. So he spoke German. I made sign of understand of speak Russian. And this went on for all the way why I am leaving. I told him my parents are in the United States and I am here, I visited, I have to go back to my parents, I don’t have anybody. And he told me what do you think in America what I will do? So I have to tell him I am not going because of you I am going because of my parents. Why I am leaving. I told him I am not leaving because of you, because of the Russians, I am leaving because I want to join my family. So somehow I survived. 

Before I came to Moscow they gave me instructions that I have to go the [intourest?] bureau and I have to buy a ticket over there for dollars and took my luggage and put me in a taxi and told the driver to go to [intourest?]. When he started driving, I took out again 50 rouble, because I knew from my friends what to do, and I bribed him again and I told him [Russian name of a place], this is a train station which go to far east, I knew exactly what to say. And he exactly brought me over there. 

Kettler: You remembered everything that your friends told you to do?
FRIEDMAN: If not I would be lost, I had to do this, I had to know. Because I was one person alone. 

Kettler: Were you scared?
FRIEDMAN: I really wasn’t scared. I will you tell you the truth, it was so adventurous, I went so much through during the war with the bombardment, not all what I am telling you. 

So when I came over there this was I don’t know maybe in the morning seven, eight o’clock and a train to Vladivostok, you know Vladivostok is far east, this you know? You have to go through the Trans-Siberian train, you have to go 11 days in the train. 
So I put my luggage over there like you know for like in a box, you know you got the key? First of all I went down to see the subway because everybody says the subway is so nice in Moscow. So I went maybe for an hour on the subway around. Went back, I saw people were so dressed terrible in rags, but the subway is beautiful, the marble and beautiful decorations over all the subways. 

So the day is getting afternoon, afternoon and I bought something to eat. I saw it is no good, it was a Jewish guy had such a small stand with papers, I don’t know, small stuff like you buy on the street, and I start to talk to him I wanted he to help me to give me some tips. He was afraid of me and I was afraid of him I don’t know, I didn’t know it then maybe he is also from the police, so I left him. I said what will be will be. I tried to buy a ticket, I couldn’t. They didn’t want to sell me. I didn’t have the permit, you have to have a ticket and a permit when you went. 

So I saw that there’s no other way so I took a chance. The train had to leave I think around eight o’clock in the evening, so I was waiting to the last minute. And I bought a ticket, you know, just when you go outside to the train, like in Poland was you buy for 20 cents a ticket just like a visitor you know. And I waited to the last minute, when the train almost started away, I went in. There was a woman who was the, there were a lot of women working over there, and she was head of all personnel. And where’s the ticket, I said don’t say anything, and I gave her already money. So she saw something is not kosher. So she took me to her place because she was supplying tea and everything else what was needed and she took care of, not the whole train, but of one piece of the train. So I start talking to her, you have to help me. Don’t worry, 500 kilometers after Moscow it is a small town Alexandrovsk and I will go with you, you will buy a ticket, over there they will sell you a ticket. And this was right. The next day I went over there and I got for the roubles a ticket. 

Now, at that time, this train which I boarded was mostly military train, military personnel. Mostly. And I was the one who, later she took me out and I sat with the other people. She took me out and I was uncomfortable because see I was so different. You could see everybody asked, I remember I had a small knife, disappeared in five minutes. You know somebody saw it and had a chance to take it, a pocket knife, took it. But was not bad. 

And they took me – actually I was a helper then. The Russian liked very much to drink. And 10 o’clock in the evening they closed the place where you can eat, 10 o’clock. And they wanted to drink so they told me that I am a stranger, a foreigner, and when I will knock on the door they have to open. And they went after me. So every evening I had a few officers and I went with them and they opened and we sat, we drank, I drank a little, you know how I can drink. But they drank and drank. So, what to say, this took 11 days. 11 days and 11 nights with the Trans-Siberia and I arrived in Vladivostok. 

When I arrived in Vladivostok, already when each train arrives the people were more already people were there in the hotel were waiting, they knew that people are coming, you know, who will come. So I immediately went to the hotel and stayed over there. Now what is happening in the hotel. In the hotel were maybe 300 from the yeshiva. Lubavitch, the yeshiva, because they were with us in Shanghai. And was only one steamer, very small ship which went from Vladivostok to Tsuruga. Tsuruga is a small port in Japan. Tsuruga. So we had to wait. 

Meantime something went wrong between the Japanese and the Russians. They said that some papers of the people are false, they are falsified, they are not original. But in the end the let the people go. So after six or five weeks waiting in Vladivostok, we left. But in Vladivostok we had a very good time because we paid all in roubles and we ate in the best restaurant and we danced. It was a very good time. 

Kettler: Who is we?
FRIEDMAN: All the people who were over there, I was not alone because there were other people waiting. There were 3- or 400 yeshiva and maybe 200 not from the yeshiva. We had a very good time over there. But we were afraid because as long as we are not free. You could sell a hanky or a handkerchief or a pair of socks for 50 roubles, it was not to believe. We went to theater, we went to buy stuff. We were always as foreigners treated very good because the [Russian police], the Gestapo saw immediately because a lot of them everywhere we were watched. So when we stayed like and waited you know until we could buy something they always took us as first one, said we don’t have to wait because we are foreigners and so on. 

Over there, being longer some of our people, not me, met a person. We met some Jews who were complaining very much and they met a person who went with Jabotinsky, you know who was Jabotinsky? [Ze’ev] Jabotinsky, you never heard Jabotinsky? You heard of Begin [Menachem], you heard Begin? Ok he was the founder of the party, he was a Russian Jew who went together to school with him. And the guy asked if he is still alive and what’s happened to him because Jabotinsky was like Ben-Gurion, you heard Ben-Gurion, he was so famous. 

And the people very complain, the Jews complain very much because most of them were former rich Jews from Moscow, from Odessa, from Leningrad, who were as rich people sent as a punishment far east. And I forget to tell you something too. Before I came to Vladivostok I went to Birobidzhan, did you hear Birobidzhan, what is Birobidzhan? Also not? 

Kettler: Maybe, I am not sure. Tell me.
FRIEDMAN: It’s a Jewish colony which Stalin created for Jews in the 1930’s, where Jews live. 

So I went and we stayed a couple of hours over there, even more. And everything was written over there in Jewish and I anxious I thought when I come over there I could buy a Jewish paper because I knew they have a Jewish paper and when I arrive there was no paper to read. So I asked the people why is there no paper to read they told me that the papers immediately bought in the morning because they have nothing for to wrap. You know, they are using it for wrapping. They didn’t have the paper, so I left. Finally came to the day so we left Vladivostok. 

Kettler: What date?
FRIEDMAN: This would be in February, end of February. End of February or beginning of April. End of February I think. 

Kettler: 1941?
FRIEDMAN: Oh sure. 1941. 

And when the ship leaves the harbor, a small ship has to carry him out, you know it cannot by its own power go. So we finally waited for this moment. Waited once the Russian small ship left and we are free, so they all from the yeshiva went on the deck and started dancing the Chassidic dances. They went in such ecstasy, you cannot imagine. This went on for hours. The Japanese captain came out and didn’t know what is going on. I didn’t know what is going on because I never saw this. I know that this exist but I didn’t know it in my life. It was so emotional. 

So we went from Tsuruga, when we arrived in Tsuruga, the people from the Jewish committee were waiting for us. We went by train to Kobe. In Kobe were already refugees, a lot of refugees were in Kobe who came through Manchuria and Vladivostok. Were not just from Poland, from Austria, some of them from Germany, were in Kobe. When we arrive we were greeted again be people from the Committee and by Japanese, which were very friendly. They put us immediately in places together where otherwise were 10 people in a room and we somehow we were supported by the Jewish Joint and by the Jews in Kobe. 

Very nice community, small community. Mostly Jews from Russia which fled the First World War and Jews, very rich Jews, Sephardic Jews, from I think Syria, India. The life over there was not so bad, was good. Over there we couldn’t do anything. We just relaxed and just waited, everybody waited for a chance to get someplace to be able to go over to the British army, or to fight the Nazis. 

Kettler: What were you waiting for? 
FRIEDMAN: I waited, you couldn’t stay in Japan because our permit – you could see I have the permit – our permit was for 14 days and the permit was always extended, extended by the police. 

Kettler: You knew you had to go somewhere else?
FRIEDMAN: Sure, I didn’t have a where to go. 

Kettler: So where did you think you would go?
FRIEDMAN: I would go where they let me go [chuckling]. I would like at that time to go to Palestine to my sister. 

Life over there was not so bad, let’s say was good. Meantime, when I was traveling on the Siberian train, I got an infectious sickness and was six people like me who got the sickness. I was hospitalized and I was in the hospital for almost a week or even more. And I survive with a very high fever. 

Kettler: Hospital in Japan?
FRIEDMAN: In Japan, yes I was in isolation hospital. One house for one patience, name was international hospital. And they said Chinese, Japanese, at that time, you’ve got the sickness, very lucky to stay alive. The sickness as they call it, [Manja] fever, and the sickness was I got the red eyes like blood. And under the skin everything was red. My throat was red. 

And I remember like today there was a doctor from Czechoslovakia, he was the head I think of the hospital or something, and he was [word] and he wanted to give me injections and I really was afraid, I never had injection in my life. I shouldn’t say, I am ashamed to say it but I have to say it. So I asked him do me a favor maybe you can do something and he said yes, I will give you something else and he gave me pills. Such big pills. He said he doesn’t know if it will work but if it won’t work you see I will have to make injection. Thank heavens it worked and I survived. I survived, I had three nurses eight hours, a nurse at my door when I was over there. This was paid for all by the Polish consulate alone, I today don’t know or by the Jewish Committee. I survived but I was thinking and I will die now and nobody will know what has happened to me. I didn’t know whether my parents and sister would die over there in the ghetto. And I thought you know they will be alive or my sister and her family in Palestine will wonder what’s happened to me. 

Now I have to go, you see now I remember again something and I have to tell you because it is very nice. When I was in Vladivostok, meantime the money arrived from Palestine. And how they figured this out, when I left Vilna, they knew where I went and one day when I am in Vladivostok they call me, I have to go to the Gosbank. This is like here the Bank of America, you know federal bank? I knew that something is wrong, they call me to sign you received 30 pound, 30 pound was 120 dollar at that time. Said, for me? From whom? Said from Palestine, from Tel Aviv. Say I don’t know nobody in Palestine because I didn’t want to take the money, why should I take the money? Because they would have given me roubles again, and the roubles were worth nothing. So I paid already my train ticket, so what for I need? I had the money you know for the ticket to go Tsuruga and I paid the money already so what for I need? I didn’t want to take the money. 

This went from one clerk to the other, at the end I had to go to the director of the bank. And who you mean is the director of the bank? A Jewish guy. This went on back and forth and back and forth, if I am Zionist if I am not, if I am this, if I am that, and in end I didn’t take the money. I did not take, I said I will not sign, this is not my money I cannot steal money, its not my money. You received money from a sister [Lichman], because husband is [Lichman]. I won’t take the money and I did not take. They received the money back and they lost four pounds. Ok better because I would lose all money because I didn’t need it. If they would give me the pounds I would have taken it, but they wanted to give me roubles. I have to go back again. You don’t mind? 

Kettler: Do you want to take a break?
FRIEDMAN: No, I am not tired. 

Before we went to Lithuania, my brother-in-law he said why don’t we try to go to Romania to smuggle. This was the first thing, to smuggle to Romania because Poland had a border with Romania. We will go see whether it’s a possibility. So we bring my sister with the child and we will go for Romania for money. So ok. I went with him by train, my sister with the child stayed in Bialystok – I am going back now to Bialystok. And we went over there, people told us where to go, and where to leave the train. Where to meet the people. We went, we met the people, everything was ok. They told us if you want to try to go to close to the border they give us addresses, this was lets say very close to the border which was the last place where you could cross. You have to leave, I don’t remember the name of the station, you have to leave the train at the small village, city. We both were very tired and we fall asleep. 

When the train start moving we woke up. He woke up the first one. I said people where we are? And they mentioned the name where we have to go out. So we panic, we have to go out. And the train goes faster and faster. He was the first one. He left the train, it was ok. When I was the next one, behind him, was the train faster but I don’t have a choice. And I left the train. When I left the train I injured my both knees, they were all soaked through and I was bleeding. And was night and snow. We hardly came to a place, to a Jewish home on outskirts of the small town and they took us to a pharmacy, to a drug store pharmacy, to a Jewish. I stayed over there maybe three or four days. And this was our try. We saw it is nothing we can do because was very dangerous. They told us better not to go. So we went back. After that we went to Vilna. Because this I forget, this was between Vilna and Bialystok. So now I am in…

Kettler: Japan? Still in Japan?
FRIEDMAN: Yes, I am still in Japan. 

So I registered, they tried, the Polish government tried to help people, younger people. Maybe they took them, they wanted to take to the army. That seemed to help people, its true, and a lot of them left. I was registered too, I was young. And one day I was on the list to go. But when I was on the list was two days or three days after I left the hospital. I was so weak I hardly could walk but I had to go to Tokyo to the Polish embassy to pick up my papers and to talk to the ambassador. So I went and it was another guy and I told him so and so, and I told him I was in the hospital and I would like to go but if he thinks I can’t go I am so weak to put me on the next list. So they put me on the next list. Now, it wasn’t a next list anymore because the Japanese found out and were suspicious that they are mobilizing for the people. Because they were together with the Germans and the Italians fighting against the British. They were not fighting against Americans yet, and the French. So I wasn’t on the list, there was no list anymore. 

Kettler: Can I ask you a question about that?
FRIEDMAN: Yes.

Kettler: Where would you have gone if you got with the Polish army?
FRIEDMAN: To the invasion, to England. I know that a lot of our people went. Some of them are not alive anymore from our group. 

Kettler: So you would have gone to England?
FRIEDMAN: I assume so, yes. 

So after that we waited and waited and nothing changed. The situation between the United States and Japan, as you know in 1941, deteriorated, as you know. So the Japanese didn’t want to have too many foreigners, or not foreigners at all, in Japan. Since they occupied a big part of China and Shanghai had a Japanese concession. A French concession, an international concession, and a Japanese concession. So they start shipping out people to Shanghai. So one day I was on the list with other people and we have to leave Japan. 

I have to add that life in Japan was really good. For us was very good, we were treated well, very well, and I have to say that if not for the Japanese transit, we, the 20,000 or 18,000 Jews – no in Shanghai we were 18,000, excuse me – the thousands and thousands of Jews who went to Kobe, they wouldn’t be saved. You know because the Japanese gave them the transit to go to other countries. So I really have to say that they saved our lives. 

Ok, we were shipped to Shanghai, and when we were shipped to Shanghai were already a different life. We came to Shanghai like cattle. 

Kettler: How did you get there?
FRIEDMAN: On a steamer. We didn’t pay anything so we were not worth too much either [chuckling] so we didn’t pay either. 

Kettler: How many went on the steamer?
FRIEDMAN: I think 300, 400 or so. 

Kettler: What did you know about where you were going?
FRIEDMAN: We going to Shanghai, that’s all I know. 

Kettler: That’s all.
FRIEDMAN: But there were others who went before me, I wasn’t the first one. When I came there were already others. When we arrived over there in Shanghai there were about 16,000 refugees from Germany, mostly, and Austria. This you probably know because everybody knows about it. And Poles were about 2,000. 

Kettler: Do you remember the date you arrived in Shanghai?
FRIEDMAN: This would be close before the Pacific war. Very close, I don’t remember the date. And already there were dead people in the street, beggars. And Jews mostly lived in a bumped out district, which was one of the poor districts in Shanghai. And the district was bumped out and repaired by Jews. There were no real toilets. Hot was terrible hot, much hotter than was in Kobe. But you have to get used to it. So we start a new life. We were supported by the Committee again, the Jewish Joint Committee. And I think partly by the Polish government or very little. And again everybody was looking to go somewhere, but we knew where can we go? No visa, where can you go? On September the 7th, came to the war. Where the war started. 

We lived over there in former schools, such places where are big rooms, 10 to 15 people. Ate in a kitchen which also supported by the Joint Kosher and got some money to buy food for breakfast, a little, and you try again to do something, was very little chance. The German refugees who came, they came from Germany, they had a lot of things they could leave. They couldn’t bring money with them but they could bring you know from home everything, almost everything. So some of them opened stores even. So the Polish refugees came just like I came. Nobody could run away with furniture. It was hot, it was summer. So they were in a much better situation. And in the beginning already to very end. the Polish refugees, it is funny to say, were always separated from the other ones. Always. Everything was separate. It was type of such differences such like it is unbelievable. 

Kettler: What did you know or hear about what was happening back in Poland and in Germany?
FRIEDMAN: At that time we didn’t hear anything. We just started to hear in 1943 through the Russian consulate, through the Russian soldiers we started to have the first news. We didn’t know before, we knew that it’s no good, but we didn’t have any news. We assumed that its no good, but we really didn’t know.

Kettler: Did you know about the camps?
FRIEDMAN: About? Oh no, at that time nothing. 

So now what to say, in Shanghai is a lot to say. A lot of people died of infectious sicknesses. In 1943 came a proclamation, this is the Shanghai ghetto, which was created. So everybody who lived in other districts had to move. And regardless of what you have you had to sell or exchange, you had to move to the district. And the district was not small, it was, you know, a ghetto is a ghetto. You were not beaten or something by the Japanese, only if you did something wrong, and that could happen everywhere. But so you were free. We had the own police, and the name was [Poachia] which stayed on the border of the ghetto, of our own people. Once a week I had to stay on the border. 

Kettler: What were the conditions like in the ghetto?
FRIEDMAN: Generally no good, generally no good because the German refugees were already over there, they started coming in big numbers they started to come in 1938 already. This was the only one place, like my wife who came from Austria, from Vienna. So they needed over there, in the beginning, later was closed, they needed only the ticket, without a visa. You could go to Shanghai but you had to have from the German authorities a ticket back, if they wont let you in, nothing else. And when you arrive you could send the ticket to someone else back to Europe like they did send to relatives. 

Kettler: Did you meet your wife in Shanghai?
FRIEDMAN: In Shanghai, yes. My wife arrive on a luxury ship from Germany and only they couldn’t base at the same time together with the Germans. But the people worked on the ship were very friendly and were at that time almost embarrassed that this is happening. On this ship, I don’t know about others, but this was, oh, she arrived in 1939. 

Kettler: So she was there before you?
FRIEDMAN: Oh sure. 

Kettler: What was her name?
FRIEDMAN: Edith. 

Kettler: Last name?
FRIEDMAN: Famek [he spells it]. She is not alive anymore. 

So, what to say. Unfortunately, three weeks before end – ok, we had a lot of bombardments around Shanghai and the America bombers flew through Shanghai to bomb Japan from Chinese bases. And we could hear sometime even see because they were so high that the Japanese anti aircraft couldn’t reach them, so we could see them. But on the 17th of July, 1945, they bombed – this took half a second maybe – a radio station who was guiding the merchant ships, Japanese merchant ships, and the station was hidden in this district where we lived between private houses. 

At that time I lived in a room together maybe 20 people on the [street name] and was a very hot day. Around one o’clock I picked up my laundry and I wanted to go to the kitchen, eat. I was walking with my laundry and one guy who lived in the same room with me went by and he had a bicycle. So I told him, would you be so kind you are going home, take my laundry and put on my bed because I am going directly to the kitchen. And I went to the kitchen. And the moment I went to the kitchen the air raid was. In our house was 17 people dead. 17 Jewish refugees dead. This is all in the book, you can read the book, you see it in the library at Neveh Shalom. They destroyed completely the station and the Chinese were lying for two, three days the dead on the street, maybe 2-, 300. They were lying so, and the flies and the rats, you could see on the street. I don’t know I was safe, maybe I would be dead if I would have put the laundry. 

Kettler: What happened to the man who put the laundry?
FRIEDMAN: No, he put in the laundry and he went to the kitchen. He was before me because he was driving. 

Kettler: I see, so he was ok?
FRIEDMAN: Yes, he was ok. If not, I would be always thinking that it is my fault that he is dead. He is now in South America. I can’t imagine, I don’t know if I would be alive, yes or no, but this is what happened. Three weeks before end of the war, on 17th of July.

Kettler: You were in Shanghai for how many years?
FRIEDMAN: I came before the Pacific war and I left on January 1, 1949. 

Kettler: That’s how many years, seven years?
FRIEDMAN: Start counting [laughing].

Kettler: You got there in 1941?
FRIEDMAN: End of ’41. [Counting…]. Eight years. 

[INTERVIEW GETS CHOPPY AND DIFFICULT TO HEAR]

Kettler: When did you learn anything about your family 
FRIEDMAN: I received letters from my brother. I had already letters from an aunt. I have three cousins. An aunt in Paris. And she in the beginning could be in contact, write letters to my parents. So what my brother heard was about my parents and my sister and other members of the family was from the aunt in Paris. She is not alive today anymore either.

Kettler: So then what happened?
FRIEDMAN:  Nobody survived. This is what happened.

Kettler: Where did they die?
FRIEDMAN: All ghetto and concentration camp. I have two letters at home when I was in Japan that say I am in Japan. And in both letters…begging send to help because they are dying…nothing to eat…without clothes. For June and July…You know in 1941, July the 1st or 20th, you couldn’t send anything to Europe anymore. I didn’t have money….I had boots…Had a very big family and nobody is alive. Is only alive my sister, my brother, I am alive, and the three cousins in Paris. 

Kettler: [Question unclear]
FRIEDMAN: I told you…he went back…he is not alive anymore.  

Kettler: [Question unclear]
FRIEDMAN: [Answer unclear]

Kettler: What did you do after the war?
FRIEDMAN: After the war, again, start to make a living….to do something, to be able to live. I didn’t have a department store, didn’t have a brokerage store…

Kettler: Where did you want to go?
FRIEDMAN: To the United States. Born in Poland and wish for that always…immediately after the war…   

[CHOPPINESS ENDS] 

FRIEDMAN: We had to leave. A lot of people left for Israel. A lot. See the Germans in Austria start going to America in the hundreds, in the thousands even. But not the Poles, the Poles couldn’t. Only who had relatives, close relatives. 

Kettler: So you set out to go to Israel?
FRIEDMAN: Yes, went to Israel. 

Kettler: What happened?
FRIEDMAN: Not cause any trouble what happened. I was 42 days on a ship because Egyptians didn’t let us through the Suez. You know probably the story. So we left Shanghai, we went through Singapore, Indian Ocean. South Africa kept on, back to Gibraltar. From Gibraltar to Italy, and from Italy to Haifa. 

Kettler: Did you stay over in Italy?
FRIEDMAN: Oh, a day or two. 

Kettler: How long did that trip take?
FRIEDMAN: 42 days. 

Kettler: 42 days. 
FRIEDMAN: So I saw a little [laughing]. Not as a tourist. 

Kettler: So did you reunite with your brother and your sister?
FRIEDMAN: Yes. I unite but I am telling you the true, it wasn’t as what I expected because the life I was used to a different better life after the war in Shanghai. And I couldn’t stand anymore the heat, the climate in Israel after so many years in Shanghai. In Japan was not so bad, but in Shanghai was very hot in summer. Unbelievable, the mosquitos. You had to shower two, three times a day. So it was very difficult for me. I was in the Israeli army too. 

Kettler: You were?
FRIEDMAN: Yes.

Kettler: For how long?
FRIEDMAN: Ok, I was married so I was only in the reserve. 

Kettler: Did you have any children?
FRIEDMAN: No. 

I will tell you something about the army, is always a joke. When I had to make the medical and went to the doctor. In Poland my left eye is no good, so I was free from the military, actually only in case of a war. [Pause…] Something wrong?

Kettler: We are almost running out. 
FRIEDMAN: When they checked my eyes in Israel, so I told them my left eye is no good and I didn’t go to the Polish army, only in case of war I should go. So they told me we have a general with one eye so you will be a private. I am not joking, I didn’t know at that time about Dayan, so this is what they told me. 

And I was 30 days in Bayt [Beit] Nabala and when I came I signed, and they saw, and I start to talk with him Hebrew. They told me if I know how to write Hebrew and I say why not. It was only one typewriter so they took me immediately to the office. And instead of like the other soldiers to go in the field, I was in the office all the time. Only I had to stay on the border and the border was very close at that time.

[BREAK IN TAPE}

Kettler: So, we left off when you were in Israel.
FRIEDMAN: Already arrived?

Kettler: In Israel, you were in the Israeli army. And you said you lived in Ramat Gan?
FRIEDMAN: Ramat Gan Bet. Ramat Gan Bet. There is Ramat Gan and Ramat Gan Bet. Bet is two. A. B. 

Kettler: A and B? And where is that?
FRIEDMAN: Two, three minutes from Ramat Gan.

Kettler: Near what city?
FRIEDMAN: Tel Aviv. 

Kettler: And you were saying life in Israel wasn’t…
FRIEDMAN: Wasn’t what I expected. What I mean by that, the people at that time who were in the government, I mean in the jobs, were very low people from Poland, I shouldn’t maybe say it, which some of them I knew. And when you had to do with them, and I remember what they did in Poland, and what they are now in Israel, when you arrive you have to have some favors to do this. You want to settle. So this aggravates me also. Because I know the people suddenly became such big shots in Israel. Very, very unfriendly. And wasn’t what I expected. 

Kettler: How was it for your wife?
FRIEDMAN: Oh for my wife was a big shock. Because my wife was born in Vienna and it is a more German culture and more vast influence. Not like we were in Poland. She never knew Hebrew, never spoke Jewish because they born in Austria for generations. So for her was entirely different surrounding and the conditions were very, very difficult too. When I arrived, they converted by force, the English pound to the Israeli pound. I was exchanging American dollars for food because was very little food. Had to buy it on the black market not to be hungry. And the conditions in the beginning were terrible. The living condition was not available a decent place where to live because people were arriving Israel 10 thousand some in one day at that time. I saw my brother was also living, my sister was ok, but my brother was not living with three children such good conditions, or as decent conditions as I thought. I brought later my brother to United States from Israel. 

Kettler: Where did he live in Israel?
FRIEDMAN: My brother? Tel Aviv. Tel Aviv and later Bat Yam. 

Kettler: And your sister?
FRIEDMAN: Tel Aviv all the time. 

Kettler: What did your brother do there for work?
FRIEDMAN: My brother learned over there, because he was hungry, so he learned himself to be a plumber. He is very handy, he was never in his life a plumber. He just had to support. He is very handy so he know how to repair a lot of things. So he started to repair whatever was needed and became a plumber and did very well. 

Kettler: And he had three children?
FRIEDMAN: Yes. 

Kettler: How many children did your sister have?
FRIEDMAN: Two children. And my sister is a grand, grand, grandma.

Kettler: Did you and your wife begin to talk about leaving Israel?
FRIEDMAN: Immediately. I am sorry to say but I somehow, it didn’t feel comfortable. As much as I liked it, I didn’t feel comfortable, I can’t help it. I was used to another kind of life, especially after the war in Shanghai. We didn’t live so bad, we even lived good. We didn’t make millions, but we had a comfortable life and was not bad. 

Kettler: Took you a long time to leave Israel?
FRIEDMAN: Oh yes, because it was five years and there was a bill for displaced persons, for 200,000 people and we were somehow in this 200,000 people bill. 

I will tell you I heard something when I was discharged from the Israeli army I remember like today, so I saw a very big car, a limousine with American flag. So I came home and told my wife you know good omen, probably go to United States and it really happened later [laughing]. I was, in 1950, I was in the army.  

Kettler: When did you come to the United States?
FRIEDMAN: In 1954.

Kettler: Where?
FRIEDMAN: I came to New York and I was two weeks. We lived with my wife’s cousin on Broadway. Two weeks, and we came here because my wife had an aunt here who came from Shanghai but her husband was from Germany. So they could easy leave. As a German that’s born in Germany they could very easy come to United States. So we came here. 

Kettler: How did they come to Portland?
FRIEDMAN: How? They came to the west coast and the Jewish Joint Committee sent out people to different places and they sent them to Portland so they came to Portland. So we came to Portland too. And you know when I came to New York and I met our friends and I said I am going to Portland, said what Portland? They are farmers over there, what are you going? Where are you going? You are Jew, you have to make business or to do something, where are you going? I said I have to go my wife has a family. If not, maybe I will come back. I am still here.

Kettler: When you came over from Israel, you came by boat?
FRIEDMAN: The name of boat was Jerusalem.

Kettler: How long did it take?
FRIEDMAN: I think 17 days but I am not sure. Or 14 or 17 days. The boat is not anymore in use. 

Kettler: How did you get from New York to Portland?
FRIEDMAN: How? I will tell you. By train, but that’s also something. We took a lot to eat. We didn’t know. We didn’t have that much money to buy the fancy food. So once we went to you know where it is food available on the train, and I ordered tea and toast. I had to order something because we ate inside, we had our sandwiches and so. So I don’t know what’s happened, I thought the waiter called someone from the restaurant and I received so much toast [laughing]. I remember he told me we were hungry!

Kettler: So you came to Portland and what happened then?
FRIEDMAN: What happened then, after four days I have a job. I was 21 years on the same job, maybe this is no good, but I work 21 years later at the same job.

Kettler: What job?
FRIEDMAN: It was here, a factory deals with plastic. A factory of soft plastic, was manufacturing shower curtains, aprons, table cloths, covers for toasters, mixers and so on and so on and lots of other things. So I worked over there. 

Kettler: And did your wife work?
FRIEDMAN: Also. 20 years. 

Kettler: Same?
FRIEDMAN: She worked as a machine operator. She never worked in her life before. 

Kettler: Did you have any children?
FRIEDMAN: [No answer – assuming he is shaking his head ‘no.’]

Kettler: And what about involvement in the Jewish community?
FRIEDMAN: I tell you the truth, not too much because I never had the time. We are both working, and we had here our mother-in-law and she died here of cancer. And we worked five days a week. On Saturday was the one day you had to clean the apartment and to do something and one day you have to have a little fun. And so the earth went by, we somehow didn’t – I will tell you I feel myself very Jewish and I don’t have to be, how to say, remind, of Jewishness. There is nothing wrong if others want. I have a religious education. On top of what I learned at school, at home I had a private teacher until I was 14 or 15 years old, at home, which taught my brother also. So I feel Jewish whatever it is and I don’t have to be remind of this or that. And we somehow, our friends I think didn’t take such an active part in the Jewish life especially. At home, we were kosher, very kosher, but not my wife. 

Kettler: Your background was a stronger Jewish background than hers?
FRIEDMAN: Oh sure. Day to night. She didn’t know anything. They lived in 16th district in Vienna that is mostly not Jews lived. She was only one child. And went to school with very few Jewish girls and she said at that time they didn’t feel any different, Jewish or not Jewish. But later you know that all started to change. 

Kettler: How did your experiences during the Holocaust affect your life? How did it affect the rest of your life?
FRIEDMAN: I think it is always with me. It’s going with me, it will always be with me. I think if I won’t be it still will be with me. Always it will be. Can you forget such a thing? You see how I remember everything because I feel everything 10 times more, which happened to me during this time but even this I remember, you know, my old living home, so yes. It is very difficult to change. 

You know what is the difference, here less you see, you have to be remind. In Poland you couldn’t be remind you are Jewish, because you are Jewish and you lived a Jewish life. You have not to be remind. Everybody was like a rabbi here and here you have to be remind. They have to as a child to start to teaching you what is Jewish, what is Hebrew, what are the laws. Over there a child was five, six years they start to learning what is Jewish. I started first to learn Hebrew, aleph bet, before I started Polish. 

Kettler: It was part of the life?
FRIEDMAN: It was part of the life! 

Kettler: You were going to tell us about bringing your brother over?
FRIEDMAN: Ok. When I saw the conditions in Israel, first of all my brother in the beginning was so patriotic that you cannot imagine. He couldn’t understand when we came and said this is no good, that is no good. Oh, how can you – see, when I came during the war… Ok, I saw what was going on. I told my brother, listen I am going to register you in the American consulate. Yes or no, you don’t pay anything. You don’t want, don’t go. Maybe they won’t call you in 20 years, but I going to register. I won’t never happen, I don’t want. But his wife, his wife said do this. 

I went to the American consulate in Tel Aviv, I took all the papers, in the evening after work with my wife, we went to fill out the papers. He didn’t know what it is. You have to write that you have relatives. I wrote that I have relatives because my wife has relatives. I know there is a brother in New York. So I took Broadway, and I wrote a name and a number. A relative, who knows. This was the beginning. I left in 1954 for United States. In 1957 I got express letter from Israel, from my brother. “What they want from me? They call me, American consulate. I don’t know anything, you see what they want from me, I don’t know.” So he was called, that they want to have them fill out the papers to start the proceeding. So she was very much for this, to go to the United States, his wife. They have three sons, all have to go to the army. Registered. Took two years, in 1959 he came to the United States, five years after us. 

Kettler: And where does he live?
FRIEDMAN: He is now Los Angeles, he is retired. 

Kettler: Did he live here first?
FRIEDMAN: Never. I wanted him. He is so Jewish, I am a goy if you compare to my brother. So he said I am not going to a place where it is not Jewish. I will stay here even if I will not have what to eat but I am staying here. And thank God he got a very good Jewish connection from the religious circles who from a few people had a few houses in New York. And he took care as a lot of those houses. This was his main income. Was a good time because in the old houses in New York the owners don’t make repairs because they pay the old rent, they don’t pay the higher rent so they had to let their bathroom or kitchen if they want to renovate they had to do on their own. So he had a lot to work and made good money. Unfortunately had three sons, one died of cancer. One son is a doctor in Los Angeles with a wife and has two children. And the other son lives in Maryland and works in Washington D.C. in defense department. 

Kettler: And is your brother now in Los Angeles?
FRIEDMAN: Retired.

Kettler: His wife?
FRIEDMAN: Not alive. She died two and a half year ago. 

Kettler: And how about your sister?
FRIEDMAN: My sister is in Tel Aviv. She is a widow now. And her children and grand, grand, grandchildren now. You know where is Habima in Tel Aviv? You don’t know where is the Habima? She lives behind the Habima exactly. 

Kettler: Have you been back to Israel or to Europe?
FRIEDMAN: Sorry, no. Not yet. I am planning, I am planning for 39 years, but I will go someday. 

Kettler: Where do you want to go?
FRIEDMAN: Everywhere.

Kettler: You want to go back to Poland?
FRIEDMAN: No, where I want to go I want to go to Paris to see my cousins and I want to see my sister, and I want to go eventually to Germany and Austria, to see where my wife was born and so on. 

Kettler: [Offers floor to someone else – assistant or videographer… sounds like Eric Harper].
H: The only main question I have is did you try, while you were in the process of leaving Europe and Russia and Japan, did you try to observe the Jewish holidays, did you ever keep kosher?
FRIEDMAN: Always, always. I was much more Jewish because I was with Jews all the time. And here sometimes in the United States you see even here are Jews but the life is unrelated. There is not such a connection like is in Europe or in Israel. You know you talk to people, you want to meet someone you have to make an appointment, here, or you have to call. There’s no way to drop in like Europe. Have you ever been to Europe? You know in Israel or in Europe you want to go to somewhere you go and you don’t say that you are coming but here everybody is, “No, I cannot now you have to call me before I see you.” So the life is here entirely different. Everybody’s here so, I don’t know, more for himself. 

Kettler: What kind of a message do you want to pass on to children now, in terms of them learning about what happened?
FRIEDMAN: Not to forget. Not forget that they are Jewish. They are Jewish, Jewish, and again Jewish. It’s the most important thing. I hope this never happen again but you see actually it is this repeats always in, not like happen now, but you will see all the history of the Jews, in the 2000 years, all was very peaceful always. 200 years ok, later, they start something against heo Jews. I probably was used to it because it was always antisemitism, always was bad. My wife always told me I cannot understand we didn’t have such a thing. I say you didn’t have but I have it, I have it always. I always felt that I am Jewish.  

Kettler: Her family was much more assimilated.
FRIEDMAN: Yes, but they didn’t feel, in Vienna especially, they didn’t feel that they are Jewish before Hitler came. Certainly everybody became a Nazi. Same people. 

Kettler: What did you bring?
FRIEDMAN: [Papers rustling] This is from the ghetto with the yellow stripe. 

Kettler: Tell more about what it is.
FRIEDMAN: This is identification that you were in the ghetto. 

Kettler: In Shanghai?
FRIEDMAN: In Shanghai. 

Kettler: Do you know what it says?
FRIEDMAN: It is in Japanese. Not many people have this. Ok? 
Are you interested in my Polish passport? I looked a little younger. 

Kettler: It looks like there is a burn hole. 
FRIEDMAN: After so many years. This shot in 1933. 60 years. 
This my permit to stay in Japan. 

Kettler: It’s in English, on the top?
FRIEDMAN: Yes, with my name. 
There are two documents from the refugee organization in Shanghai. 

Kettler: What is that again?
FRIEDMAN: A document that I am registered as a refugee. And later it is both of us. 

Kettler: Certificate of registration it says, to be filled in by the head of the family.
FRIEDMAN: Ok? Ok, can you read this? 

Kettler: International Refugee Organization of the Far East. It’s from Shanghai, and it’s a letter certifying that you are a displaced person of Polish nationality, and that you are registering with the office for IRO assistance. What is IRO?
FRIEDMAN: International Refugee Organization. 
I have one more, this is Israeli passport. You want this, or you want that. Which one you want, this or this or both. 

Kettler: Both.
FRIEDMAN: Both? Ok. 

Kettler: Do you speak Hebrew?
FRIEDMAN: Sure. Why don’t you ask me if I speak English [laughing]. 

Kettler: Didn’t you say you speak Russian too?
FRIEDMAN: I speak six languages. And write, only Russian I cannot write. All others I write and speak. 

Kettler: That’s a joint passport with your wife?
FRIEDMAN: Yes. 

Kettler: And what is the year on this?
FRIEDMAN: It would be 1954 when we left. You know when I left and wanted to apply for an exit visa in Israel, so they guy the clerk asked me if I think the people don’t sweep the streets in America. You know? Like people say there it is gold in the United States, so there are people who sweep the streets, why I am going to America, so he asked me if I think there are no people who sweep the streets.

Kettler: People feel probably that you should stay in Israel, they think it will be better over there.
FRIEDMAN: Maybe. 

Kettler: Is there anything else you want to say before we stop?
FRIEDMAN: I don’t think. I appreciate very much, this was very nice. I hope this can be some kind of help. 

Kettler: We thank you very much for spending the time.