Estelle Director Sholkoff

Rickles: Could you tell me Estelle, where did your parents come from? 
SHOLKOFF: Well actually that area changed during World War One and then again during World War Two. At one time it was Poland and at one time it was Russia. My mother came from actually in Poland, Lodz, a fairly large size city. I remember seeing it on the map when I studied geography in school. My dad came from a small village about 20 miles from there and it really didn’t have a name. I can tell you the name that they called it, but I don’t think it would be of any value. It was called Charterisk. The only reason is it might sound familiar to someone because the Rosenfelds and the Schnitzers came from that general area.

Rickles:  What was your mother’s name? 
SHOLKOFF: Her name was Annie Shapiro Director. Shapiro was her maiden name. 

Rickles: What was your father’s name? 
SHOLKOFF: Nathan. He was known as Noah because his Hebrew name was Noah. Many people still called him that even though he had the name Nathan. 

Rickles: When did they come over? 
SHOLKOFF: My dad and mother were married in 1908 and Dad came over about seven or eight months after they were married. He worked for about a year or so and then sent for my mother. She came here somewhere between 1909 and 1910 and she came with an infant, a little girl. This is not general knowledge, I just happen to know. She travelled, as she told me, in the very worst way, not because it was so bad (psychologically she was so excited to come here) but because it was hard on her physically with an infant, and probably because she came the least expensive way possible, and had many changes to make. And of course she could speak nothing but Russian and Yiddish. So it was a little difficult. I sometimes wonder how she managed. Hamburg, I think, is where she sailed from. And I know she didn’t know the language there, but she managed. They all managed at that time just as the early American pioneers managed. 

Rickles: Was it just she and the infant? 
SHOLKOFF: Yes. 

Rickles: Who was this infant? 
SHOLKOFF: The infant is no longer alive. She died before I was born, it was a little girl. 

Rickles: And she then came to Portland? 
SHOLKOFF: My mother came to Portland; my dad was already here. 

Rickles: Why did your father come to Portland? 
SHOLKOFF: My dad came because his older brother was here. His older brother was Shirley Nudelman’s grandfather his name was Shia Director, he was called Sam because there was another Shia Director who lived In Portland. 

Rickles: And this was your father’s older brother. 
SHOLKOFF: And the reason that Shia came to Portland was that there was a man called “Fetter Fox” (Fetter means uncle). I guess was the “uncle” of all the people in that area. Now Fetter Fox, Uncle Fox, I vaguely remember as a little girl had a long beard. He came to the Northwest and he went back and forth between Seattle and Portland, and the last I recall, he had moved to Seattle to live He was related to the Rosenfelds, either directly or indirectly, and that was where the name “Uncle” came in. They all called him. “Uncle” or “Fetter”. The Rosenfeld clan, those who came from the same general area also called him that. Now why he came, I don’t know, but he was the first of the clan that came over here. Then gradually after my dad came and his younger brother came, and later, much later his sister, that is Esther Mink, my dad’s mother and my grandmother came. She had stayed, the grandmother that is, because they had a little prosperous farm, actually it was a little mill, they ground flour there. She stayed with my dad’s sister. 

Rickles: Was she a widow? 
SHOLKOFF: She had been a widow. My dad said he did not remember his father, so evidently his father had died when he was very young. My grandmother Director was the matriarch of the community. 

Rickles: Do you know her first name? 
SHOLKOFF: Yes. As a matter of fact my daughter is named after her. Her name was Hannah Surah, which anglicized would be Hannah Sarah actually, and my daughter Karensue is named after her, we changed it a little. Hannah Surah came here about 1923, as soon after World War One as they could get organized. She sold whatever she could then. She was the matriarch of that community and everybody in that area worked for them, for the Directors, there in their mill. It was a small village. My dad said they had horses and chickens, they ate off the land and all their relatives were beholden to them for work or material things. They weren’t what you would call poor for those standards, for those days, nor were they wealthy, but they always had enough. My grandmother Hannah Surah was a very, very wise woman. I wasn’t very old when she came here, and she lived for about eleven years here before she passed away. She was very orthodox, very traditional, but very wise. I say this because I remember so many things she used to say. They impressed me as child. She was considered the ideal mother-in-law. She had three daughters-in-law and one daughter here. I remember asking (this was in Yiddish. which I could understand), “Hannah Surah, what makes you such a good mother in-law?” And she said, “Because I have wonderful daughters-in-law.” And I have never forgotten that. And I try to do the same thing as a mother-in-law. Then I remember despite the fact that she was very orthodox and very kosher, once she was some place (and I can’t recall where or how) but she ate something and somebody questioned her eating it, not that it was treyf, but people around her were not sure that she might have been served something that wasn’t kosher. She said that when you are a guest in someone’s home, you do not insult them. It is more important to be gracious and kind to your hostess than to follow a simple rule of kashruth. These are just a couple of things I remember. She was tiny. I bet she wasn’t more than five feet tall, very thin, and I just see her in that perruque. You know they had a wig that the Orthodox women used to wear. Only once did I see her without it. She wasn’t feeling well and I went to help her out and she had it off. I have beautiful memories of her. My other grandmother I don’t remember too well, my mother’s mother, because I was about four or five when she passed away, and I don’t recall too much about her. 

Rickles: She also lived in Portland? 
SHOLKOFF: Yes. My mother’s parents had come here soon after she did, to America, in fact my grandfather conducted his own business. He was Zavel Shapiro. My son is named after him. You can see we have close family ties. Zavel Shapiro lived with us in his last days. I think I was 21 or 22 when he died and that was by an automobile accident. He was a strong healthy man. I think that I have been talking a lot. 

Rickles: That is the whole purpose of this interview. Do you know where did they live when they first came? Let’s go back to your father and mother. Your parents brought your grandparents over, so where did your parents live? 
SHOLKOFF: I can tell you where I was born. I was born in a house which no longer exists on Second and Arthur because those high rise beautiful apartments coming south from Market and Clay, from the Ramada Inn south of there. There is an empty lot with service station next to it. I was born there, in the house upstairs. The Schnitzers lived downstairs. That is the Morris Schnitzer family. Morris Schnitzer was born two weeks after I was in the same house. We were renting from the Schnitzers. My husband and his family were living about three blocks away and when I was due to be born…and I tell this very facetiously when people ask me, “how long have you known your husband?”, I say, “Before I was born.” We didn’t have a phone, but my husband’s family did. My dad went over to their house to use the phone to call Dr. Tilzer. Dr. Tilzer delivered all the babies in Old South Portland.

Rickles: What was his first name? 
SHOLKOFF: I don’t remember. I heard that name [spells it]. My dad used to say when I started to go with my husband, when I got engaged, “If I had known that little boy playing on the floor was going to be my son-in-law, I would have trained him to be rabbi.” My dad always wanted a rabbi in the family but it didn’t work out that way. And then we moved from there when I was about a year or so old and we lived on Second and Gibbs. That house still stands; it’s about two blocks from the Neighborhood House. I lived there and started Failing School. One sister was born there when I was six. 

Rickles: Before we get into where you lived, let us get back for a moment to your father and mother. What kind of work did your father do? 
SHOLKOFF: When my father first came here he was a peddler with a horse and wagon. I don’t know how long that took, but not too long. Soon afterwards (and from the pictures we have, it could not have been more than a year or so) he started a business with another man, Mr. Julius Brill, who is Frank Brill’s father, on SW First between Main and Salmon. The original building is still there; the store is there. My dad was there until he died. 

Rickles: What store was that? 
SHOLKOFF: It was a clothing store, men’s clothing. 

Rickles: What was the name? 
SHOLKOFF: Originally the partnership was Director and Brill, and then it changed to N. Director. I have a perfectly gorgeous picture taken about 1917 or ’18 with Mr. Wolf from Vancouver, Washington, who at that time worked for him. 

Rickles: Could your daughter make a copy of that? 
SHOLKOFF: Oh certainly she can. The only thing is it has a little fading around the edges, but she can probably do something with it. May be I can find the other print. 

Rickles: How did he get started in that job, do you know? 
SHOLKOFF: When he was with Brill he saved a few dollars. And I suppose Brill saved a few dollars with him. Maybe they knew somebody in the wholesale business who gave them credit. They probably started with $10 or $20 worth of merchandise and kept expanding. Of course they didn’t live the way most people live. They were very careful how they spent their money. My mother was a wonderful, wonderful homemaker. She could stretch a penny like nobody could, and I learned many important things from her too. She always said to me, “Always put away a little bit. Dad doesn’t have that much salary now. You must save a little bit. Someday you might want it.” You know the old timers always felt a little piece of land was very important to own, and I grew up with that idea. She told me many things.

Rickles: What kind of things did she teach you? 
SHOLKOFF: About homemaking, about life in general. I remember when I was a little older I was in high school and there was some kind of fund raising, a meeting, I don’t remember what the organization was. And her sister, my aunt was at the house. My aunt gave a dollar and my mother gave five and I remember my father saying, “Why did you give more than your sister?” and she said, “I have more and so it is incumbent upon me to give.” She wasn’t asked to give more than her sister was. Whoever was soliciting obviously said, “Will you give…?” Whatever the amount was they had recorded. And she said, “Those that have it must do it.” 

And I remember she did that with organization work. My mother was a charter member of Hadassah. Sometimes I would get provoked as a youngster and I would say, “I want you to do this for me and make this for me,” and she said, “I have to do something.” And I said, “I don’t know why you always have to do something for other people.” And she said, “Because I can and I am able to, therefore I must.” She meant not only physically but also emotionally and possibly financially. Although, while my parents were very comfortable, they were not what we would consider wealthy in this day and age. 

My mother was a marvelous seamstress. I remember some thing very amusing. I was going into high school; at that time we lived where Portland State College is now on Park St. And we always walked down. Nobody ever had bus fare even though it was only 5¢. We walked to town, walked by the Lipman, Wolfe window and there was a gorgeous deep purple suit. I said to my mother, “That is beautiful.” and she said, “Let’s go in and look at it.” We went in and looked at it and I saw the price tag and I knew that never in my wildest dream could I get that, besides who bought store bought things when mother could sew? Maybe once in a blue moon if it was on special. So she looked at it very carefully and she had the salesgirl bring out my size and I tried it on and she inspected it. We walked home and I thought she is going to buy it for me. I was so excited! The following Saturday we walked down to town and I tried it an again. My mother looked at it again and I thought she was checking it if it is worth the money that they are asking. And we walked home. If I had been sophisticated I would have realized that this was no suit for a high school youngster, not the color nor the style, but I thought it was so gorgeous; I was so excited. But about ten days later, lo and behold, my mother was wearing that suit. She had made it for herself, but she had gone and checked it out on me. She could sew or make anything when she has seen it. She made her own little paper patterns. When I was going to college she used to send me clothes all the time. They were always fascinated by the fact that she could send me clothes. She’d go into a store, find a salesgirl who was about my size, have her try it on and if she thought it looked good, she’d buy it for me and send it to me. It wasn’t that far away, but she would. 

Rickles: You said that your mother was a very giving woman. Would you say was that a very unusual attitude at that time for women, or was that typical? 
SHOLKOFF: I don’t know how unusual that was. I can’t speak for others but in our socio-economic group possibly I’d say she was on top of the list. Many women spent their time playing cards and my mother never did that. She was either doing something at home, sewing or cooking or baking or making something for someone. And besides that she helped my dad out. She used to relieve him at lunchtime or whenever he had to get away. I remember her going down to the store quite often. She had a great deal of energy, and when she had to do something, she would get up at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning. On holidays she was always up at 4:00 in the morning, baking and cooking. She was well organized and planning in advance anything that had to do with the kitchen, In those days there weren’t freezers so she had to do everything that day. When the day came when there were freezers she was very happy. 

Rickles: Now you mentioned that she was one of the charter members of Hadassah. Can you tell me a little bit about that? 
SHOLKOFF: Not really because I really don’t remember that much about it other than that she told me that she was a charter member. I remember her mentioning some names that did not mean anything to me except one; that was Paula Lauterstein. 

Rickles: Tell me about the names she mentioned. 
SHOLKOFF: I don’t really remember except Paula Lauterstein, who was very active in Hadassah until the day she died. Paula was Celine Lowenson’s mother, Felice Driesen’s mother and Herb Lauterstein’s mother. I remember Paula because she was the first president or a temporary first president. Paula was related to Carrie Hervin, who also was very active in Hadassah. There was another woman involved but I don’t remember her name because I didn’t know her and Paula I did know; that’s why I remember. 

Rickles: About what period are we talking about here? 
SHOLKOFF: I think about 1916; I should know, but I forgot. 

Rickles: About the time of the end of the First World War. 
SHOLKOFF: In that general area; I should know because I was alive then myself, but I forgot. 

Rickles: What does this tell us then about your mother’s views on Israel? Her feelings? 
SHOLKOFF: Of course she was always a very pro-Zionist person. My dad had a man who had the same name he did, who was actually a cousin. Because he has lost his parents as an infant he was raised by my grandmother Director and they had called him brother. My dad always referred to his brother in Israel. When they all came, he and his family and his contemporaries came here, this “brother” went to Israel. He was one of the pioneers around 1911 or ‘12 and at that time I remember hearing my dad say when I was a youngster, “He was a “freethinker.” A freidenker, and that’s why he went to Israel. He wouldn’t come to America and he eventually had his family there. When I was in Israel, I met him and his entire family. He is gone now, but the rest of the family are still there. 

Rickles: How did he use the term “freethinker’? 
SHOLKOFF: In the first place, he didn’t follow traditional Orthodox Judaism. And probably he was almost a rebel, because those who are conservative and follow the general daily tasks, didn’t think of going to Israel. That was hard work going there. And it also meant giving up your friends and family. They were almost like what we knew as hippies a few years ago. They went on nothing; they had nothing as far as material things are concerned. But they didn’t care; they had a reason for going there. They communicated with my dad and the rest of the family quite regularly. As a matter of fact, my aunt Esther Mink corresponded with him until he died and has corresponded with the family. She was there recently there, too, to visit. There are grandchildren and great grandchildren over there now and they are established in cities, in Tel Aviv. He was the only one of their whole group who didn’t come over. The rest of them all came to Portland. And of course my mother’s folks came here because she was here. Then eventually her sisters came too. My mother’s younger sister is Frances Meyerson; I don’t know if you know who she is.

Rickles: I will see that on the family tree and get that into some kind of a chronology then. You mentioned your mother’s involvement in Hadassah. Were there other organizations she was interested in? 
SHOLKOFF: I should have said my mother and dad went to some form of adult education at what was then the Failing School. Dad of course went at night because he was working, and my mother went to some night classes but also a few day classes. There were also classes at the Neighborhood House, not in English, but in domestic sciences. My mother always took advantage of every opportunity. She took as many classes as she could. She used to take me along, even after I was old enough to go to school. After school she used to take me to classes at the Neighborhood House so could learn whatever came along. She graduated from Failing School. My dad didn’t; I guess he got tired of going. After he could read and write pretty he well stopped going to school. My mother did go until she finished the eighth grade level. And she did pretty well as far as her vocabulary, her reading and her writing was concerned. But my dad always read the Jewish newspaper that came from New York. Very often he would read some of the stories in there like the Dear Abby and Ann Landers stories. It would be amusing. And sometimes he would say to me, “What do you think this person could have done?” or, “How do you think this should be answered?” We used to have fun doing that together. Because I was the oldest in the family I was his “son.” We used to have a very close relationship, my dad and I. My mother had a marvelous relationship with all her daughters. She was like an older sister, very young and very gay and very beautiful. I would meet people on the street, and they would say, “Are you Annie Director’s daughter?” and I would say, “Yes.” “Oh, you much look like your dad. She is a very beautiful woman.” She was a very attractive woman. She always kept herself young and modern in dress. She was the first one in her whole crowd to bob her hair years ago. I was so embarrassed and so ashamed at the time. 

Rickles: Now she went to Failing School and graduated from the eighth grade. 
SHOLKOFF: It was adult education. 

Rickles: And besides that there was her activity in Hadassah. We were talking about what other community organizations she was involved in. Was there a synagogue affiliation? Tell me about that.
SHOLKOFF: Well, I don’t know how much she did with that. They didn’t have a sisterhood and auxiliaries in those days. 

Rickles: What synagogue was this? 
SHOLKOFF: They belonged both to Shaarie Torah and to Neveh Zedek. Neveh Zedek no longer exists. Neveh Zedek combined with Ahavai Sholom to become Neveh Shalom but Shaarie Torah was the Orthodox and Neveh Zedek was the Conservative. My mother did not like sitting up in the balcony at Shaarie Torah, which was the way the Orthodox synagogue was in those days. And so my parents joined the Conservative synagogue. So at holiday time they would go to the Conservative synagogue, where we could sit together, the children and Mother and Dad. But when my dad wanted to go to services by himself he would go to Shaarie Torah, just with the men and the boys. It used to be a sort of a little social group. It was a place for discussion, a good place to find out what was going on around town.

Rickles: We were talking about your recollections about your mother’s organizational affiliations in Portland, Hadassah is what you can recall. 
SHOLKOFF: I recall that because I became active in it, and that’s why it became important for me to remember. 

Rickles: What about your dad’s affiliations? 
SHOLKOFF: Oh my dad was very, very active in the community. He was on the board of the synagogue and he was on the Welfare Board. As a matter of fact my dad was president and chairman and practically everything at the Hebrew Benevolent Society. They may have changed the title but it still draws from the Jewish Welfare Organization. He was active in that group. He was a worker for the Oregon Jewish Welfare when it first started. He was very active in what is now called the Robison Home when it was down on Fourth Avenue and called the Old People’s Home. He was active in the Jewish Education Association and very active with the Hebrew School. As a matter of fact, he started a branch of the Hebrew School in Eastmoreland, when we lived there, because there was no way of transporting the children from that area. He had the school in his home for a while. 

Rickles: Do you know about when? Any kind of date? 
SHOLKOFF: I am going back with the age of my children–about 23 years ago. 

Rickles: About 1950, 1951? 
SHOLKOFF: Yes, in that general period. They had a Hebrew School there for about three years because it was during the time that my son had his Bar Mitzvah. And then they met at Reed College because one of the teachers was going to Reed, so they arranged to have a classroom there. And I remember going to pick up my daughter who was about ten or eleven and I heard someone in the hallway say, “Don’t tell me that is a Reed student! They are getting younger and younger.” 

Rickles: Who was teaching the classes? 
SHOLKOFF: His last name was Zohn, I don’t recall first name. He was a Reed student and had been a graduate of the Hebrew School here in Portland. 

Rickles: And who was teaching at your father’s house? 
SHOLKOFF: The same young man. And there was another young man also teaching, but I don’t recall his name. I think he was just here for a little while. 

Rickles: What happened after Reed? 
SHOLKOFF: It was abandoned. When my children were through there was no one to hold it together anymore. There weren’t enough students involved. You had to have a minimum of ten and there just weren’t that many left. When the kids went to high school they didn’t want to continue. I think my son went for one year in high school and that was it. And the others too. They had their Bar Mitzvah and they were through. That usually happens. So that was discontinued. I am trying to remember some of the other organizations. 

Rickles: Did your father remain active in the Hebrew Education Association afterwards? 
SHOLKOFF: Oh yes. My dad was active in all the organizations till he died. He was always running meetings. He would go to meetings at night and my mother would sew and cook. 

Rickles: You mentioned the Oregon Jewish Welfare Federation, the Robison Home, the Jewish Education Association, Benevolent Aid… 
SHOLKOFF: I think probably every agency that is on that Welfare list he worked for or with, at one time. A very active community worker actually. He used to collect for a Matzo Fund to send to Europe. They still do that at Shaarie Torah. Rabbi Geller still collects funds to send to Israel. Typically for Passover, to collect that money. That was sort of a private deal. I don’t know who was in charge of that but he did that every year. He would go around to friends of his and collect a few dollars to buy matzos for the people. At first of course, it was for Europe, and in more recent years for Israel, for people who couldn’t afford to buy the matzos. He used to, through Mrs. Hyman (I am sure you have heard of her) take care of the transient Jewish boys during the Depression years. He would see to it that they got a meal at Mrs. Hyman’s. And he tried to clean them up a little, maybe give them a shirt, a pair of socks, and give them a quarter for a shave, shave and a haircut probably in those days. He had funds for that but he also gave them a little bit. 

Rickles: He had funds through the Benevolent Aid? 
SHOLKOFF: The Benevolent Aid Society had funds to pay for this. As a matter of fact, one year a man came to us and my dad talked to him and said, “You look too bright. You talk too intelligently to be tramping around.” He said, “I left home.” “Where did you come from?” “From Chicago.” He mentioned the business that was his father’s and the name was familiar to my dad through business. He said to this young man, “If I give you railroad fare home will you go back home? Go back to your dad and go to work?” And the young man said, “I might.”And about 20 years later my dad walked into that business and that young man was the executive and my dad said, “If for no other reason than that I got this young man on the right track, the Society was worth it.” He used to tell stories like that at times. He would run into some of these people years later. He would get notes from them thanking him. It wasn’t his work particularly except that he was an agent for the organization that was handling it, but he used to talk to them and tried to convince them that they should not be tramping around the country. It wasn’t the thing for a nice Jewish boy to do. 

Rickles: Did this organization exist? The Benevolent Aid Society or did your father start it? 
SHOLKOFF: I think two men started it if I recall, Nemrovsky, who was the pillar of the Neveh Zedek synagogue. Mrs. Toot Heims is the daughter, her maiden name is Nemerovsky, and Dr. Lena Kenin also was the daughter of Mr. Nemerovsky. 

Rickles: Sure, the psychiatrist. 
SHOLKOFF: But originally she was an obstetrician. That’s how we knew her, some of us. 

Rickles: And who was the other daughter? 
SHOLKOFF: Toots Heims. Her husband is in the advertising business, Bud Heims. Now Mr. Nemerovsky and my dad were the whole organization I think, between the two. He was much older than my dad and my dad just took over after he got older. 

Rickles: There was another man besides Mr. Nemerovsky who was the founder. 
SHOLKOFF: Just Mr. Nemerovsky and my dad. 

Rickles: Your dad took over from Mr. Nemerovsky 
SHOLKOFF: Yes. 

Rickles: How was the money for the Benevolent Aid Society collected? 
SHOLKOFF: Well I think at that time they probably just went around and asked people for a few dollars here and a few dollars there. They didn’t have an organized fund raising group as we have today. Maybe they call a meeting once in a while and say they need a few dollars. I don’t recall. 

Rickles: Was it the local community that supported this or was it the national? 
SHOLKOFF: It was just purely local. A group of people probably decided that they should do something and collected. I think most funds in those days were just collected by word of mouth. Once in a while they would get together. There was no concerted fund raising actually. I recall that eventually the synagogue did that, but I don’t think that they did that that when I was a little girl. I don’t remember. 

Rickles: Did they have an office or did it operate out of your father’s home? 
SHOLKOFF: The office for my dad was his store and the office for Mr. Nemerovsky was his store. There was no organization at all for groups of any kind. The office for the synagogue was the rabbi’s home. I don’t think they paid yearly dues. I think they paid so much for their seats for the holidays and the closer you were to the front the higher price was the seat and then they had the aliyah, being called up to the Torah. And they paid for that. $1, $5, $10, what ever they felt like. And that is how they raised their funds for the synagogue. 

Rickles: At the Benevolent Aid Society? What years did your father run that office? 
SHOLKOFF: Oh, he did it until he died in 1969. He must have taken it over in 1920, I think . As long as I can remember he was working with this. I would say right after World War One. 

Rickles: How did the young men who came to Portland find your father? 
SHOLKOFF: The transients? They were told. Just as we have been told, they marked houses and buildings for other transients they knew. They used to meet in camps. You have seen pictures of these hoboes’ camps or read about them. They tell each other or maybe they come to town and ask where a synagogue is and then they would be sent to my father. In more recent years this is the way it was done. They would look in the phone book under congregation and then they would either call there or go there. And then the rabbi in charge would send them down to my dad. The entire town knew about my dad and that he did that work. 

Rickles: Were there any non-Jewish organizations that your father was active in? 
SHOLKOFF: I don’t think so. He always belonged to a few groups but he wasn’t actually active. The Odd Fellows and the Elks Club and he would go to meetings once in a while and use the athletics facilities. He was never active in any of them. As a matter of fact my mother wasn’t either to my knowledge. All their time was taken with their Jewish activities and their earning a living or whatever they had to do. And they didn’t have labor saving devices that we have now. So things took a little longer. I remember when my mother got an electric pedal for her old fashioned sewing machine, and that was quite a revolution. She was so excited about it. And I have that machine and I cherish it. This is the one, of course now it is an antique. 

Rickles: Let’s talk about you a little bit then. You were telling us about the first recollections about the house where you were born. 
SHOLKOFF: Well I don’t recall the house anymore. I recall the house where my sister was born when I started school, on Second and Gibbs. It had about fifty steps going up, I think it seemed more like five hundred to me. But anyways it was almost on stilts. We lived right next door at that time to the Rosenfelds. Victor Rosenfeld was born right next door. His parents and my parents were very close friends. And David Finkelstein lived there. Of course he was the bachelor at that time and I remember him. He used to come over and play with me. 

Rickles: The Rosenfelds, what was his first name? 
SHOLKOFF: That was Abraham. They called him Abe. 

Rickles: Did you stay in that neighborhood for a long time? 
SHOLKOFF: We stayed there until I was about nine and then we moved to what is considered old South Portland. We moved up to Fourth and Grant, which is still South Portland now, into a tremendous house. I remember that big house, and then I had to transfer schools. That was a traumatic experience because I was in the fourth grade. 

Rickles: At what school? 
SHOLKOFF: Shattuck 

Rickles: And you transferred to where? Your first school was what? 
SHOLKOFF: Failing. 

Rickles: And you transferred from Failing to Shattuck School? And what do you remember about that? 
SHOLKOFF: About transferring? Not too much, except that I didn’t know anybody there, and I think I felt a little shy and it took me a while, but I finally became adjusted because I graduated from the elementary school. We kept moving in that general area. 

Rickles: Were there several moves? 
SHOLKOFF: Yes. We lived in one, two, three, four homes. They were not permanent you see. My folks finally bought the fourth place. The house we moved out of on Second and Gibbs belonged to my folks and they rented it three times before they found the house they wanted and then and that was the one they bought, and I was in the sixth grade. That was a block from what was the Shattuck School. The house is not longer there. The freeway has cut through there. The house is gone. 

Rickles: What was the address? 
SHOLKOFF: It was SW Park. A neighbor’s house, back to back, is still there. But our house was demolished along with the Shaarie Torah synagogue that went at the time. Our house was right across the street from there. Of course we were no longer living there when they took it down. My folks lived there for a good many years from the time that I was in the Fifth grade until after I was married. My other sister grew up there. We all went to Shattuck and then on to Lincoln High School, which was walking distance. I would wait to hear the first bell ring and then I would wake up. 

Rickles: You were telling me about the house that your parents bought. Would you consider that was still a Jewish neighborhood that they lived in? 
SHOLKOFF: There were quite a few Jewish families but there were also many non-Jewish families around there. On our block, which had six houses, four were Jewish families on Park Street. Across the street only one was and directly across the street from me I grew up with and was very friendly with (I don’t know how important that is) Mayor Neil Goldschmidt’s father, who lived right across the street from us. In fact we graduated from elementary school together. It was a fairly cohesive group. The families that lived there. And from there we could walk to the old Jewish Community Center on SW 13th and our social life really was more or less centered there. That is during my high school days. When I was in elementary school I used to walk all the way back to Neighborhood House because I went to Hebrew School until I started high school and did what the normal youngster did, played, took piano lessons… 

Rickles: You say your social life centered in the Jewish Community Center? 
SHOLKOFF: It was called the B’nai B’rith Center first. Then finally was called the Jewish Community Center. We used to go there twice a week after school for our gym classes. At that time you were allowed to take your physical education outside of the school if you had a signature by a qualified person. So the kids that went to Lincoln High School, boys and girls both, went to the Center twice a week and we would meet not only other girlfriends but we would meet other boyfriends too. There was swimming there. And there were also evening classes for the young adults and sometimes, when we did not make it after school, we would go in the evening. They used to have basketball games and after every game there would be social dancing. That was at the time of ballroom dancing. They would sometimes have live music and sometimes canned music. 

Rickles: Did that include non-Jewish kids from Lincoln High School or just the Jewish kids? 
SHOLKOFF: There were just Jewish kids and at that time only Jewish kids belonged. Non-Jewish people did not join the Center until it became a Red Feather agency and that was long after I was out of school, after I was married. That was within the last 30 years. It was a Jewish organization and the kids who did not live near there came over by bus. Grant High School kids from northeast came over and we would see them during gym period or during a game. We had clubs and social clubs where we could meet. 

Rickles: What kind of social clubs? 
SHOLKOFF: I really don’t know what we accomplished except that we met each other and I got acquainted with people from other areas. 

Rickles: Do you remember any names? 
SHOLKOFF: The name of my club was the Clavis Club, which meant “key” in Greek. And then after our group there were others. After we graduated from high school other groups came up and some of my best friends throughout the years were associates of that original Clavis Club. 

Rickles: Was there any kind of social carry-over between your friends from the Center and your life at Lincoln High School? 
SHOLKOFF: Two of my oldest and best friends are from my high school days. I don’t know if I can actually say it’s from the Center but we all went to the Center together. 

Rickles: So these were Jewish friends. 
SHOLKOFF: I didn’t have any non-Jewish friends at that time. 

Rickles: Was this typical? Was there no mixing between Jews and non-Jewish kids at Lincoln? 
SHOLKOFF: Very little of the people I knew. There were some that did in isolated areas, Washington High area, Franklin High area, they would have non-Jewish friends through school. But those who went to Lincoln or Commerce (which eventually became Cleveland), and Grant, I think pretty well stuck to Jewish friends. And they came to the Center for the social life many of them. Some of them got their social life through by that time Neveh Shalom or Temple Beth Israel. I went to Sunday school for a while at Temple Beth Israel and I met people that way. There were social groups started that way too. But we didn’t mix too much in those days. 

Rickles: Would you say that was a result of being excluded by the non-Jews? Was that a form of antisemitism? Or was that by your personal choice? 
SHOLKOFF: I think probably both. We were just used to being with Jewish people. Our parents had their friends, their Jewish circles. They didn’t, for the greater part, belong to organizations that took in non-Jews. At that time certain clubs did not accept Jewish people and I don’t think that my folks ever considered this as antisemitism as such. They just found their friends in synagogues or at the Center and that was it. There were some who belonged to Tualatin Country club, but that was all Jewish in those years. Or they responded to people that they would meet if they were new in town and they would meet them at the synagogue possibly if they didn’t meet at the Center. 

Rickles: This also carried over to the children. 
SHOLKOFF: And most of us were friendly with our parents’ friends and usually in the neighborhood because we didn’t have cars in those days to start with. If there was a car available, Papa had it, nobody else did. I remember when I started driving I was one of those few youngsters who ever got the car. My dad was very generous. When I was in high school if I wanted to go to the football game or to the basketball game, he would send one of his workers to Lincoln High School, which was not too far from my dad’s store, and I would drive them back. Then I would come back and load up a bunch of kids and we would all go to the game. But that wasn’t very popular in those days for youngsters. But as I said, I was the “son” of the family and my dad did things with me that he possibly wouldn’t have done or didn’t do with my sister. So I started driving very young at that time. I think the kids I took to the games were Jewish. I can’t recall. But I didn’t take any non-Jewish people to the games. 

Rickles: Did you have non-Jewish neighbors? 
SHOLKOFF: We were friendly but that was about it until I was married. My non-Jewish friends I didn’t not acquire until I went away to college. I can’t say that I have had any lasting friendships with any of those girls that I was friendly with while I was in school. I did correspond with a few after I graduated but then that was about it. When I joined non-Jewish organizations after I was married it was different. Then I did acquire some friends and I still have some. I have many of them today. That’s been in my adulthood, not in my childhood and most of my friends are still Jewish. As I say, there are several of them who were my friends still in high school. 

Rickles: Was there any overt antisemitism that you were aware of? 
SHOLKOFF: There probably was, yes. But I was not conscious of it. I’ll be perfectly honest with you. I used to hear about it at the time and afterwards but I personally wasn’t conscious of it. I would remember hearing from boys who did not make a team, “I didn’t get on because I was Jewish.” And I never would accept that personally, because whatever I wanted to do I did and I never felt that my Judaism ever kept me from doing anything I wanted to do. I didn’t try to get into certain clubs. I wasn’t interested. I didn’t need them. 

Rickles: What kind of clubs? When you say that some clubs didn’t take Jews. 
SHOLKOFF: The University Club and the Multnomah Club and The Waverly. 

Rickles: Were there clubs at Lincoln High School that didn’t take Jews? 
SHOLKOFF: I don’t think so. There were clubs that didn’t have Jews but I don’t think that was because the kids were Jewish that they didn’t take them. There were plenty of non-Jews they didn’t take. There were just little groups we had and there were from time to time some Jewish kids that got into those groups because they happened to be social friends of theirs. As I say, I myself was never aware of it. I was an excellent student and I did get along fine with the kids that I was friendly with but I was not looking for anything either. Let me put it that way. When I went to college I did hear people say, “I didn’t get on that team or I didn’t make this because I am Jewish.” But as I say, I didn’t accept that. As a matter of fact, one year, now it is not considered a novelty, but then it was, one of our student body presidents was Jewish at the University of Washington. 

Rickles: What year was that? When did you go to the University of Washington? 
SHOLKOFF: I was at Washington from 1928 to 1931. I went to Reed College in my first year. 

Rickles: You went to Reed in 1927, and so you were at Lincoln… 
SHOLKOFF: From 1924 to 1927. 

Rickles: Now you spent a year at Reed. 
SHOLKOFF: I went to Reed and then I transferred to the University of Washington. 

Rickles: Did you belong to any social clubs there or anything? 
SHOLKOFF: University of Washington? They didn’t have sororities at that time. They were established after I graduated. So I didn’t belong to any social group as such. There was no Hillel on campus then either. I just belonged to certain fraternal organizations on the campus but no social groups. 

Rickles: How did the Jewish kids get to know each other at the University of Washington? 
SHOLKOFF: There were fraternities and they had a B.B.T. There were a couple, two or three, what we called “houses” where the Jewish girls lived and once in a while there would be a non-Jew. So that the boys would find out about them and the local people of course, were very good about having dinners and parties and there would be open meetings. The temple would have an open meeting for Jewish students on campus so you could go there and meet somebody who is going to school or somebody local.

Rickles: Estelle, I wonder if you can tell me something about your involvement in civic or religious activities during your early years in Portland. 
SHOLKOFF: Where shall I begin? Shall I begin with my organization work after I was married? 

Rickles: You were active before your marriage already. Start with that. 
SHOLKOFF: Well I don’t remember if we discussed the fact that I used to go up to the Center when I was in high school. 

Rickles: We discussed that. 
SHOLKOFF: That takes us through high school then. During my college days I don’t think I was too active in any organization outside of campus organizations. I was involved with activities there but they were not Jewish oriented. I think we will just go on to the period after I was married and probably the first activity in which I became energetically active was Hadassah. I was president in 1950 and then I was president of the Northwest region in 1953. I was on the national board in 1955. It was 21 years ago so it was while I was still on the national board that I was chosen to be one of 25 women in the country to be on what was called a “leadership training tour” for Hadassah. Hadassah sent us to Israel to become familiar with it at first hand rather than learning about it from books and pamphlets and papers. I won’t discuss it except that it was a very thrilling experience. It was a new state then and I know if I were to go back now I probably wouldn’t recognize many of the places we visited at that time. 

Rickles: What year was that? 
SHOLKOFF: 1955. One of the obligations was to do fundraising when we returned, which I did up and down the coast, not only for Jewish groups. It was for non-Jewish groups, too, for PTAs and anybody who would take me to raise money for Hadassah at that time. 

Rickles: You say you drove up and down the coast. Tell me where you went. 
SHOLKOFF: I went to Tacoma, Seattle, Everett, Bellingham and cities of that type. And then I went to small towns in Oregon where people who had seen the publicity in the papers and Christians who wanted to know about that country. So I called and I would speak and they would ask questions about the country. Basically of course, I discussed it from a Zionist point of view, but there were many things that they asked and if I could answer them I did. About that time I went back to teaching and so I did not do too much organization work for a while. However I am a member of practically every Jewish organization in Portland including the Council of Jewish Women and Brandeis. And I have served on boards from time to time for different organizations. After I taught for a while (and incidentally, I have a deep feeling for my religion, I have taught Sunday School until this year, as a matter of fact.) I started teaching Sunday school when my son was in the seventh grade so that is about 24 years ago. 

Rickles: And which Sunday School was that? 
SHOLKOFF: Temple Beth Israel, of which we have been members for many years. We also have a membership in Shaarie Torah. I don’t know if I mentioned that to you or not, because my parents and my husband’s parents are buried on the Shaarie Torah cemetery and he feels that we should be members of that congregation for that reason. We long ago gave up the Orthodox approach and so we are more vitally active in Temple Beth Israel. I have taught religious school there until this year. I started teaching in the seventh grade and worked my way up to Confirmation, which I taught for about 20 years. Then I was Religious School principal for Temple Beth Israel. I took that position on a temporary basis because in the middle of the year our religious director left. I took it for five months and stayed for five years. 

Rickles: When was that? 
SHOLKOFF: 1950-1955, and I finally retired from there. That was the last of what I would call structured work I have done. Everything else I have done has been more or less volunteer. I have done substitute teaching but nothing on a regular basis since 1965. 

Rickles: Estelle, may I ask you something before we get into any of your other organizational work? You say that you gave up your Orthodox approach and I know that your parents were still very Orthodox. When did this shift take place, and how did that come about? 
SHOLKOFF: Well you know it’s peculiar. Now that you ask me, you know I keep kosher. There are certain things that I do that are probably … When I mean that I gave up Orthodoxy I mean that I don’t go to the services there probably. Although at yartzeit time I do go to Shaarie Torah in memory of my mother and father. When I went away to college the first year I didn’t eat anything but tuna fish and bread and cheese for a whole year. I didn’t make fire and so I did have to have somebody follow me like a little “shabbas goy” to turn on the lights for me around me around the house. It became a little difficult after a while. So the second year I was gone I started to make fire. In other words the electricity was the important thing. 

I can’t actually recall the first time that I ate something non-kosher. I blocked that out of my mind but it was some time during college days. My husband was not raised in a kosher home. It did not make any difference to him. In deference to my parents I kept kosher and even though they are both gone I still keep kosher. And as a sidelight my granddaughter, who is almost 12, delights in playing with dishes, real dishes, not toy dishes. She says, “Granny, you have so many beautiful dishes. Why do you have so many dishes?” I said, “I keep kosher so I have to have an everyday meat set and an everyday milk set, and then sets for luncheons and sets for dinner parties. And then I have to have all that silverware.” And she said, “Oh Grandma. When I get married I am going to keep kosher because I like that. Lots of dishes.” I think this is the only phase of Orthodoxy that still clings. I think basic Judaism is the fate of the Orthodox, Conservative or Reform and it is just the approach in how we treat it that makes a difference. I don’t think there is that much difference anymore because the Reform temple movements have been gearing towards the Conservative and the Orthodox, and the Orthodox as my father knew it, my father did not consider the most recent Shaarie Torah building and the way it was organized and the way it was run as really Orthodox because women were not sitting up above and that kind of thing. 

Rickles: When did that change take place in Shaarie Torah that the women were not separated from the men? 
SHOLKOFF: It took place when Shaarie Torah moved up to Park Street and that temple is gone too because when the freeway was built it took it away. That was, I guess, about 30 years ago maybe. Maybe not that long ago. I’m trying to remember. Steve had his Bar Mitzvah at the Shaarie Torah, but with the original congregation, which had the upstairs for the women. That was 23 years ago. They still had the original Shaarie Torah at First and Hall. The new one they must have moved about 20 years ago, I would assume that they built the building with just men and women able to sit together. 

Rickles: How did they happen to make that change? 
SHOLKOFF: Well, I think because they tried to keep the young people and more and more couples wouldn’t go because the wife wouldn’t sit upstairs. Even my mother wouldn’t do that. I think I mentioned that’s why she joined the conservative because she was too modern for that. She didn’t want to sit up there with all the women. She wanted to be sitting with her family’s bench. 

Rickles: In an earlier tape you mentioned that you attended Sunday School at Temple Beth Israel, which means that some shift toward Reformed Judaism had already taken place prior to your marriage and prior to your going away to college, 
SHOLKOFF: Well I don’t think that there was actually any change in my religious approach at that time because I was still going to Shaarie Torah and Neveh Zedek synagogues as far as the holidays were concerned and I was living at home which was an Orthodox atmosphere and I think the only reason my folks let me go there was because they felt that it was better than nothing at all because I had quit Hebrew School. I had gone to Hebrew School up to that time until the time I started high school I had gone to Hebrew School and they wanted me to have some kind of a Jewish education. I don’t think I picked up too much, but they felt whatever I got would be better than nothing at all, and being with Jewish children. You see, that was very important to my parents and I didn’t go to high school where there were a lot of Jewish kids. There were a few but they felt at least once a week I would be with all Jewish children my age, but I don’t think it changed my religious attitude or my form of worship or prayer and that sort of thing. 

Rickles: How was the decision made to affiliate yourself with a Reformed synagogue rather than a Conservative synagogue? 
SHOLKOFF: Well after we were married and had our children, at that time the only religious school was then in Temple Beth Israel. The other two synagogues didn’t have it and I wanted my son to go to a religious school and at that time you did not have to be a member for your child to go; you paid a fee. So Steve belonged to the religious school and we paid the fee. We had not yet joined Temple and then there was a change in their administrative policy so in order to have my children in religious school we had to join, which we did, and that was about 30 years ago approximately. 

As long as my folks lived, we went to services with them. We very often went to services at the Temple and I know that the Temple has always had two services since we’ve been going there, that is on Rosh Hashanah night and we would go to services with my folks for the early service as they would start early and then we would go over and make the late services at Temple because I wanted to go to Temple too because our children were growing up there and those were their friends and I felt we should go there. And as said, my husband did not come from either an Orthodox or Conservative family. His father died when he was very young and his mother just wasn’t too concerned although she did go to services, but there wasn’t the same deep-rooted feeling that we had in our home, that my dad placed great emphasis on. But it was easy, the transition wasn’t a bit difficult for us. 

Rickles: Now you were telling me about the organizations that you were affiliated with. How active were you then in Temple Beth Israel? 
SHOLKOFF: Well, I taught the religious school as I mentioned before and I always did, one or two jobs along the way but until I retired from being the religious school director I really didn’t have a lot of time to do organization work. After that I became an active member of the board and, as of 1973 I am now on the National Board of Temple Sisterhoods. 

Rickles: In What capacity? 
SHOLKOFF: Just as a national board member at large. 

Rickles: Can you tell me a little about what those duties entail? 
SHOLKOFF: Well when you are a national board member of Temple Sisterhoods, you are assigned certain portfolios and obviously when they checked my records, the one they gave me was religious education which means overseeing what is done in the religious school in my area and included in that is the Judaica Gift Shop. So I get this material, which I read to my Temple and to others who ask for it and there is correspondence from people from small towns who want to know how to set up a Judaica Gift Shop. When I was in Newport Beach recently I gave them all the information although that’s not my region but I was there and that’s where our children lived so I gave them the set up for the new shop there all the material because I had just come from a National Board meeting and had it handy so instead of sending somebody there I just gave it to them because I was there and that’s what my portfolio includes right now. 

Rick1es:  What does your region include? 
SHOLKOFF: The District here is from northern California, not northern California, Oregon Washington, Idaho, Arizona and Montana is the Sisterhood region. It is a very large region and of course it has sub-divisions and there are regional officers too. Actually Bernadine Brenner who is a member of our Temple happens to be the President of our region this year. 

Rickles: Have you been involved with any other Jewish organization’? 
SHOLKOFF: Well I was on the Jewish Community Center Board for several years and that was around 1955 at the old Center. 

Rickles: What were your duties there? 
SHOLKOFF: I was a board member. I can’t tell you specifically what job I had but I probably did programming and membership as I recall and had something to do with the physical education department too because I was always active in that program there. As a matter of fact I really learned to swim before I went to the Center. I really developed my stroke at the Center when I was in high school under Mickey [Hirschberg]. 

Rickles: What do you remember about Mickey? 
SHOLKOFF: I remember that she was a hard taskmaster, but you learned from her. And she was always pleasant and had a good sense of humor and at our age we all thought she was just great. I met her when she first came to Portland and she had the most marvelous sense of humor and she would tell us stories and it was kind of fun to be with her. She was like a big sister to us and we were just good friends for many, many years. I think she had a special interest in me because I was interested in swimming and taught me lots of little things and she had me help her in the pool there as a lifeguard if she had to go out for awhile she would leave me in charge. It was fun to know Mickey. She was an interesting person–well read; She knew what was going on, but well disciplined. I remember that she was fun. She would sneak off and have a cigarette when no one knew about it, in those days when you weren’t supposed to. And then of course I knew her at camp too when I went down to summer camp as a counselor. That was when I was in college. She would be in charge and we would get together, a group of us, sit around and just talk, tell dirty stories , smoke a cigarette. 

Rickles : What camp was that? When you were a camp counselor at what camp? 
SHOLKOFF: The B’nai B’rith Summer Camp. 

Rickles: Where was it? 
SHOLKOFF : The same place it is now in Devils Lake, only it looked different then. Its been remodeled and added to and changed a lot but that is the original camp site. 

Rickles: How do you remember it? The original camp. What stands out in your memory about it? 
SHOLKOFF: Well I don’t remember the physical layout. I do remember the physical layout but it doesn’t impress me very much as the fun we had being there and the things we did there. I had to get up early in the morning. I was in charge of calisthenics in the morning so I had to be an early riser. I rang the bell to wake up the other people 

Rickles: How early was that? 
SHOLKOFF: Probably around 6:30 or 7:00. I have forgotten now. And because I was an early riser I got out of certain duties and I thought it was just great. I didn’t mind getting up that early because I don’t think I ever had to do KP or anything of that kind. I had privileges because I got up earlier. We used to go down and go rowing and canoeing and that was fun. I loved being with those kids. I had a nice group of youngsters. As a matter of fact one of the youngsters in my cabin in those times, and I don’t know if they still do it, we used to have honor campers and every Friday night we would announce the honor camper and then if somebody got honor camper more than once or twice then she got an award at the end of the season. One gal in my cabin was the honor camper from my cabin, and I pushed very hard for her to be the honor camper of the whole camp, she came in second or third because she was fairly young and think it was her first season, that little girl is the mother of my daughter-in -law. Her name is Mary Greenberg now. Her maiden name was Mary Puziss. She was in my cabin. She was several years younger than I am. I should remind her of that sometime. I don’t think I’ve even mentioned it to her lately. They used to live across the street from us when we lived on the park blocks; it was quite a little Jewish center. Portland State is there now and of course the streets are gone. I think I told you that last time, but Mary’s house is still there, the house where she was born and where she lived, about two blocks away. It’s still there. 

Rickles: Now, we were talking about Mickey Hirschberg and how she had taught you to swim. 
SHOLKOFF: Well she didn’t teach me to swim. As I said her discipline was so strong that I felt I had to improve my stroke. I had to swim a mile. I just had to otherwise I was afraid of her. She would be standing there and she would say, “Estelle you must,” and Estelle did. I always knew how to swim. I had learned how to swim a couple of years before. I actually learned to swim in the elementary school where I went, Shattuck School, which was about a block away from our house. They had a pool there and an instructor after school and I had actually learned to swim there. I paddled around like most kids did but it was during those high school years that I really developed a stroke that was a fairly decent stroke. 

Rickles: Now you served on the board at the Jewish Community Center. What was happening at the Jewish Community Center? This was in the middle 1950s. Was anything special going on there at that time? 
SHOLKOFF: I think we Just had routine group meetings and classes. 

Rickles: Was the Center still restricted to Jews or had it opened up already? 
SHOLKOFF: No, it hadn’t opened up yet. I think it was just before it became a Red Feather agency. Just Jewish people were coming there then. Oh, there had always been a few non-Jewish members. A few of the boys used to come up to play ball. They were friends of others but it wasn’t publicized particularly and because they were not involved with the community and many people didn’t know about it. 

Rickles: Were these boys actual members, dues paying members? 
SHOLKOFF: I think there were a couple of basketball players. I think they paid their dues. I can’t recall. Just boys, I can’t remember any girls that came up, but there used to be high school age boys maybe a little bit older. A.Z.A. was very strong and just before that there had been strong basketball teams and they have travelled around, really during my college days more than by the time I was on the Center board. They were trying to develop an education program that they hadn’t had while I was on the board and trying to make more of a social meeting place. It had dropped in significance that way because this was after the war. During the war it had been a social meeting place for young people and then it had dropped its significance and wasn’t effective and so they were trying to build it up again to a social status and we did develop study groups during that time and had a lecture series. 

The Rabbis talked on Jewish education and then we had a series of Jewish music, Michael Loring, who is not living here anymore. He lives in Sacramento. He gave a series of lectures on Jewish music. He is a Cantor now and so I think probably this would be the only thing that I would recall that we did during that period in the Center. 

Rickles: Why did the significance of the Jewish Community Center drop after the Second World War? 
SHOLKOFF: Oh, I think there might be many reasons. I think people were awfully busy getting settled in their new way of life. We were becoming an affluent society then. People had a little more money. They were travelling more out of the city. They were trying hard to join golf clubs and other country clubs and groups where they hadn’t gone before. They had money to help them and I remember there was a period of a great deal of travel of my peers. People who made money during the war and immediately afterwards were using that money for material things and also for travelling and so the Center was no longer that important to them and they were moving. I can truthfully say that I think about that time there was no longer any closely knit Jewish center area of living any place. I remember that when my daughter was in the Confirmation class by that time half of the addresses were northeast and half were southwest. When my son was in Confirmation class most of them were northeast. Of course, he was five years older. Now if you were to take a listing of a Confirmation class, I don’t think you would find any northeast. The Jewish people who live northeast are older people who don’t have children going to school and so going southwest didn’t mean any one place because it was spread all over and the Center became too far away. 

When people lived in old South Portland, when I was a youngster, we could walk to the Center. We always did, we walked there and back even though when we were older some of us had cars, we still, many times would walk. Even from northeast there was transportation that took you right by the Center. That might have made a difference. The busses didn’t run too close. It was more difficult to get there. When I went to gym at the Center, my friends who went to Grant High, northeast, picked up the trolley right in front of the school and transferred and stopped right in front of the Center. On a rainy day, at 5:00, a mother doesn’t want her youngster in the dark and rain if she has to walk four or five blocks and then transfer a few times. But when you get on and off right in front of your own home practically, it is a little easier and simpler. So it may have been transportation. It may have been location of homes and money. I think probably the money had most to do with it. I think it has changed back. I think it is going back the other direction now. Of course, I don’t have little children so I am not involved any more, but it was the “center” of our social lives, of all my peers for years. We had dances there; we had parties there. It was just the place to go. Of course, we had home parties too. Small groups which young people don’t have anymore and we would turn on the record player and we danced. Ballroom dancing, and the boys didn’t know how to dance and the girls would teach them, but we used to have run parties at home and lots of food. 

Rickles: That sounds like a nice time. 
SHOLKOFF: Oh we had fun, not that we didn’t have the trials and tribulations of all teen-agers. 

Rickles: Do you remember any of those? 
SHOLKOFF: They were probably no different than any anyone has now, you know. Most of mine were involved with the fact, I think, because I was so tall. I was always the tallest girl and I was always towering over the boys, but I danced anyway. But that’s the advantage of being a good dancer. It didn’t matter. I always had partners for dancing even though I was taller, because I was able to follow. 

Rickles: Let’s go back a minute to the organizations. Did you belong to any other? You have so far talked about Hadassah, your involvement as a Sunday School principal and teacher at Temple Beth Israel, being on the board of Temple Beth Israel, the board of the Jewish Community Center. Are there any others? Were you involved with Council of Jewish Women?
SHOLKOFF: I have always done spot jobs. I have never served on the board of Council of Jewish Women. I was on the Brandeis board for a year or two when it was first organized. 

I was a member of many non-Jewish organizations. I belonged to the American Association of University Women for about 20 years from about 1942 to 1962 and participated in many, many study groups. If you look around my home you will see all my little projects are from classes that I went to, really study groups, art groups, craft classes and that sort of thing. I have been a member of League of Women Voters for about 40 years. I also belonged to the Portland Art Association in 1955. At one time I was president of the Cleveland High School PTA, when my son was enrolled there. That was in 1955. And I belonged to Mother’s Club of my children’s schools, Stanford’s Mother’s Club where my son Steve went to school and Lewis & Clark Mother’s Club where my daughter went to school. I have tried to participate in activities with them. I was a substitute teacher in the Portland School system for about seven or eight years, sometimes they were one or two days and sometimes they were six to eight weeks depending on just what was going on in the school, or what the woman for whom I was substituting for was doing. I gave that up when I became the principal of Temple Beth Israel as that was a full time job.

I used to take long drives with my children and sometimes I would take my nephew along, or a niece or somebody else, but we used to tour around the country, the canyons and the beaches, until my son graduated high school. When he went off to college we terminated that activity. Once in awhile my husband would go with us. We drove to Sun Valley and then he had to come back to work so he took the train back and we drove on. We went to Yellowstone and Grand Teton and I drove with my son and daughter then alone and those summers were really just wonderful, not only because I got to see areas where I have never seen myself, but I could not only see them as an adult but I could then see them through the eyes of my children too which was just very important. We drove all the way down the coastline two different summers and as I said, we went to all three canyons, Bryce, Zion and the Grand Canyon. 

We stopped in Las Vegas on the way to the canyons and it was quite an interesting experience for my children. They had never seen anything like it. Of course, they supposedly couldn’t go into the casinos there, but they had to walk through sometimes to get to where we were going and they had food stands around the swimming pool and my daughter, when she came home, said to my husband (I think she was about eight then, and a terrific eater), “Daddy, that’s the most wonderful place to go. You know you can eat all you want; all you have to do is say you’re living at the hotel and tell them what room you are in.” She had a grand time there. Those summers, there were about four or five summers we did that, and I used to go dude ranching with my children. My husband would come for a day or two but that was about all the time he allowed himself for vacation, so I would spend the rest of the time with the children. Whatever it happened to be. That’s how our summers were spent when the children were growing up. Now our summers are spent right here at home. 

Rickles: As you have talked about all the organizations you belonged to, you have been a very involved person in your community. Why do you think this was so? 
SHOLKOFF: Well I suppose because I was interested in the groups. I didn’t belong to groups that I felt weren’t offering something for the good of people and I don’t mean as far as offering good to me because no matter how hard you work for an organization you always get something out of it yourself personally. There is a certain self-satisfaction in doing a job well. There is a certain learning process. I felt really that I had had a renaissance in Jewish education when I started working for Hadassah and belonging to a study group. I went to the library and did a little research because we had to give reports and it was a question of self-pride. I wanted to give a good report and I only could give a good report if I studied myself. I always like studying. I will say this, I was good student. I always enjoyed school. I loved school. I still do and so this was, as I say, something where I had a chance to renew my education. I think the same is true of some of these other groups. As much as I may have done for these groups, they have done more for me. They expanded my horizons, they developed my personality, my character and when I worked for an organization I always felt that not only had I something to offer that organization but that organization had something to offer others and I would never work for a group that was very selfish or a group that was centered around a minimal number of people, because to me that wouldn’t be important. Sometimes I worked for an organization because I was asked to do a job that I felt I could probably do and sometimes I worked for an organization because I knew it was important. I might have been tired and I might have been disinterested for the moment but I did it because I knew it had to be done by somebody and if I could do it, I did it. If I didn’t feel efficient I would say so and to this day I feel that way. If I am called now to do something and I feel I can do that as well as anyone else I will do it if I physically can. If it is something that I feel that someone else can do, I will say no, and suggest somebody else. I feel that in my age of life am privileged to do so. I can say no once in awhile. Not too often, but I can say no. I find that I can’t do as many things as I used to because I just haven’t the physical energy. I get tired more easily than I did 25 years ago, so I don’t do as much as I used to do, but if I can do it I will still do it.

I feel it’s important. It’s a question of self-ego too. I get a lot of satisfaction out of doing something well, a certain pride in doing something well, even though I know I am doing it for the organization and it has to be done. As far as teaching is concerned, I love teaching and I love children and I love being with young people. 

Rickles: Can you tell me a little bit about the teaching jobs you have held? 
SHOLKOFF: Well, I have probably taught almost everything offered in the secondary school system except the commercial subjects. 

Rickles: What schools have you taught in? 
SHOLKOFF: I have taught in Cleveland, Franklin, Grant, Washington, Wilson, Lincoln and Madison. 

Rickles: Over a span of what length of time?
SHOLKOFF: Oh, seven or eight years as a substitute teacher. I would go wherever I was sent of course. 

Rickles: Did you become a teacher when you graduated from College? 
SHOLKOFF: I had a teaching certificate, oh yes. 

Rickles: And did you hold a……
SHOLKOFF: I taught school when I first graduated college. I taught in a small town in Washington, 

Rickles: Where? 
SHOLKOFF: Elmo, it is in Gray’s Harbor. It’s between Olympia and Aberdeen on the highway. 

Rick les: And what brought you to Elmo? 
SHOLKOFF: I was offered a position there when I graduated college, a teaching position there, so I took it. I only stayed there one year because it was during that time that I started dating my husband and then I was married. And at that time, when I stopped teaching, married women could not teach in the state of Oregon; that was the law.

Rickles: In the State of Washington? 
SHOLKOFF: Oregon. It wasn’t until World War II that they took married women again, because they needed them, because you see this was during the depression and they felt it was unfair to take a married woman when others needed the job. If your husband was employed that is, and so I stopped teaching and I was married and I worked for my dad in his clothing store after I was married. I have always worked. I just retired when I retired from Temple. I retired ten years ago, and as my twin nephew said to his mother, “How can Aunt Estelle retire? She’s not old enough.” But anyway I worked for my father for a while, while my husband and I were going together. And then my husband and I worked together in what was known as a “Mamma & Papa” store. It was a little dry goods store on the east side right at the end of where the Ross Island Bridge is on Powell and Milwaukie. It’s no longer there. The building is no longer there. 

Rickles: What was it called? 
SHOLKOFF: It was called the Milwaukie Dry Goods Store. It was a little store and the two of us worked there. My husband and I worked there until one month before our son was born and then we had somebody else come in and work. And then after that my husband left there and went into business for himself down at Third and Oak. It was the Portland Outdoor Store, which business he ran until he retired. 

Rickles: Was this right after the Depression that you worked in the dry goods store? 
SHOLKOFF: Yes, it was 1933, 1934, 1935. 

Rickles: What memories do you have of the Depression? 
SHOLKOFF: Well I’ll tell you what I remember. I don’t recall that I was suffering too much. I was going to college and I managed like anybody else at the time did. And when we were married I do know that my husband’s salary was very small. When I think of it today, his weekly salary was about what you spend when you go out to dinner now. I remember that a loaf of bread was 9¢, and a quart of milk was 99¢ and I remember that the streetcar fare was 5¢ and that I used to walk to save that 5¢. But we budgeted our money. We managed. Of course we didn’t go out to dinner very often. We did go to a movie once a week and the movies was 25¢ a person. I remember buying for $5 a hat, a purse and a pair of gloves. Would you believe it? $1.95, $1.95 and $1.00. That was my first expenditure because my mother had given me a lot of things before we were married. In fact we had a minimal salary and my husband was helping his mother on that salary and so we just didn’t spend much. Of course I was going to school, so we didn’t have to spend a lot of money. 

I went to night school at Portland State. It wasn’t Portland State then. It was called Oregon Extension. I got my master’s degree after I was married. I had started it before but finished up afterwards. And I went very slowly then. You could only carry four hours a quarter so it took awhile. Two nights a week I went to school and my husband would clean up the apartment and he would walk down and meet me and we would walk home. A big night would be a big 5¢ bag of popcorn after school. It would probably cost 50¢ or 60¢ now when you go to the Coliseum. We would walk downtown and look at the windows. It was fun, and then once or twice a week I went up to the Center. I still went to the gym and swimming. I forgot what the dues were but they weren’t too much at that time. We would then meet friends of ours up at the Center, young married adults. We would sit there and talk. Maybe play cards and we would walk home. We happened to live within walking distance. 

Rickles: Where was home? 
SHOLKOFF: We lived in two apartments. One was on SW Park directly across from the main Portland State Building now. It was one of Mittleman’s apartments. And then we moved to another apartment on Tenth and Hall, which was about three blocks from the old Center. The streetcar would stop right in front so that my husband could take that streetcar home. We didn’t have a car of course in those days. Transportation was better. You didn’t have to have a car. And if you had to go some place (once in awhile somebody would have a party) somebody would pick you up. 

Rickles: Did you notice whether life in your neighborhood changed as a result of the depression? 
SHOLKOFF: What do you mean socially?

Rickles: Whether it affected your neighbors or your friends around you? 
SHOLKOFF: I don’t think I was too aware of it because we were all about in the same economical social position and I think we just went along. Remember, I was at the stage then that I don’t think I was too aware of what others were doing. I was just out of school and I was just getting married and caught up in getting settled as a young married adult. I don’t remember that any of us complained about “not having anything” the way some of our children do now. We were happy having had what we had and we were satisfied with what we had. But not having known anything differently makes the difference. We hadn’t had a lot of everything. Most of our parents had just reached the stage where they could afford to do things for us in our particular group. Maybe for others it was different. Maybe those people who had been here in the country for many, many years and their children felt different about it, but in our social group our parents had been struggling to establish themselves. So we had never had a great deal of luxuries around us in our homes. We were well fed; we were well clothed. But we didn’t have furs and diamonds dripping from us. We could adapt to certain things, whereas the people of today who have to stop and think twice about getting certain material things because it was easier to get five years ago before the prices went up. As a matter of fact I am more conscious of it today than I was then of the prices and what has happened to our economy. Maybe because I am older and I am more concerned about the welfare of myself and my family, but having had something makes the difference. 

Rickles: What kind of changes did World War Two make upon your life or the life of the Jewish community that you were aware of? 
SHOLKOFF: Well, I don’t know that it affected our whole Jewish community because not too many of our peers went into the service. My husband did, but there weren’t many of them that went it. Most of the boys stayed home. Most of the men who were in business did tremendously well financially and what it did was just raise their economic level at home more. I might say that maybe some of them became a little more selfish, more self-centered and more interested in their physical warmth and desires. But I don’t know if it changed my life. I had to go to work because my husband was gone. I ran the business. I don’t know whether it changed my life very much. I was tired. I came home and had to do my housework. I had a woman staying with the children. Maybe it made me stronger physically. Maybe it made me stronger emotionally. That’s just personal. 

Rickles: How did it happen that your husband went into the service? 
SHOLKOFF: It happened that we were on a board where they needed men. That was true in the city of Portland at the time. There were certain boards set up to draft men and our particular district was short of volunteers and short of people so they did draft from our section and my husband was drafted. He didn’t volunteer. 

Rickles: Where there other parts of the city where men were not drafted? 
SHOLKOFF: Yes of course. None of our friends who had children were taken. We did have a few friends who went in but they didn’t live in our section. In northeast there were certain sections they were taken from, where they needed the men they drafted. If you didn’t have enough volunteers and couldn’t meet the quota, they drafted. That’s how they worked it then. It wasn’t very democratic. 

Rickles : Was there a certain number that was required for each draft board? 
SHOLKOFF: That’s it. X number of people and if you didn’t have X number of 21 year old boys, then you had to take the married men. We had two children when my husband went in. He tried to get out on the basis of that but that didn’t make any difference so he went in and served. 

Rickles: One of the things that I wanted to ask you was early on it appears that the Directors, the Schnitzers and the Rosenfelds formed a very close social unit. Is this still the case? 
SHOLKOFF: Yes. As a matter of fact my generation are all very friendly. We are very close with the Rosenfelds and the Schnitzers. I will say not all of the Directors. You know my family was not the only Director family here. But our unit is very close. We are very close with the Schnitzers, Manny and Morrie. You see, one of the Director girls is married to a Schnitzer. Arlene Schnitzer is married. Arlene is a Director but we are very friendly and we are very friendly with Betty and Victor Rosenfeld and that goes back because Victor was my mother’s godson and she always felt very close to him. The families have kept close. Now I don’t know whether it had anything to do with our parents or not. Maybe yes, maybe no, but we are good friends. 

Rickles: I would like to ask you, when you look back how do you feel living as a Jew in Oregon? 
SHOLKOFF: Well let me say this, I don’t feel that I lived as a Jew. I feel that I lived as a person in Oregon. I am Jewish. It didn’t make any difference to me. I don’t suppose if I had been Protestant or Catholic, as far as my association and my life is concerned. I never felt that I was helped or hindered by being Jewish. I think this is something that is a personal thing. I’ve never flaunted it nor been ashamed of it. I belonged to many non-Jewish groups. I belong to non-Jewish social groups today. I call them social. We do things and when the occasion arises that I have to mention the fact that, “Jewish people do this.” Or, “Our synagogue does such and such.” I say it just as easily as I would say, “I have a pair of white shoes on.” It is just something that is part of me and my whole being. I think it has made me a better person being as I identify as strongly as I am with my Judaism and I feel that it has been helpful to my family. I feel that it is very necessary to be identified some way, somewhere, somehow. 

I distinctly remember one of the first things my son told me when he went to college was, “Mother, I am terribly confused. My Grandparents are Orthodox. We are Reformed. I come to college and most of my teachers are atheists. I don’t know where I’m going.” I said, “You’ll find out soon enough.” And he did and I think all freshmen have this problem. It is one among many and I think it is very necessary and very important to have a very strong religious identification, at least in my case it is–in my family. It may not be with some people. Some people may be much more worldly than I am and don’t need that. I think it has been good for me and it has been an important part of my life. I adhere to many of today’s principles which are basic humanitarian principles in the long run. 

Rickles: As you look back, having lived as a Jew in Portland have you seen many changes take place in the Jewish community and institutions? 
SHOLKOFF: Do you mean the Jewish institutions or non-Jewish? 

Rickles: In the Jewish institutions. 
SHOLKOFF: Well, of course there has been the physical change of the moving out of the core areas. I think more people are not identified. They may belong, pay their dues and they will go to services twice or three times a year. They are not as concerned nor as aware of their religious affiliation. They drop their children off at religious school and pick them up and don’t know what’s going on, nor do they seek to find out what’s going on. Also possibly this is true of the Center too. They drop them off and pick them up. I think the younger adults don’t have the strength of feelings that our generation did, but that is because they have been accepted into other organizations and other groups. There was a time that you could not belong to other social groups. You couldn’t belong to the Multnomah Club or Aero Club or some of the other groups in the city and so maybe we’ve dissipated our energies in our affiliations that way. 

Rickles: How do you feel about these changes? 
SHOLKOFF: I am not too vitally concerned about some of them. I think the opening up of the institutions by letting in one or two or three or four Jews to each of these organizations in the city of Portland, that’s all right; it doesn’t bother me. I don’t care. I don’t need them and they don’t need me. The only thing that bothers me is the fact that the young people (when I say young people I mean 25 to 43) don’t feel close ties, close identification with Judaism and with their synagogues. They feel they’re being good Jews and they don’t have to belong and they don’t have to go and they don’t have to be affiliated with or work for their organizations and I feel that this is a loss. I think that possibly they would be helping themselves. They would gain inner strength if they would really identify themselves more and more and became more involved with Jewish organizations and Jewish groups. I am not saying that they should limit it to that, but I do feel that it would really help them. I think it gives you a certain strength. 

I remember that when the State of Israel was declared, what a difference it made between those who professed to be Zionists and those who professed to be non-Zionists. So many non-Zionists suddenly became Zionists. During the time of the Seven [Six] Day War, I was standing outside and friends of my daughter came to pick up her car. They were driving it cross country for her and this man who I never met before in my life said, “You Jews are pretty good. You finally showed them you could fight.” And I thought to myself, “That’s an odd thing.” But nevertheless that was his feeling. I do feel that the more you are involved the stronger you become, no matter what it is. And I certainly think we need it in our religion. And I think Christians need it too. I think all people need it because there has been too much of trying to run away from yourself kind of thing. 

Rickles: As you look ahead then, what is your philosophy about the future of the Jewish community in Portland? 
SHOLKOFF: Oh I think it is going to be strong. I think it’s going to get stronger. I think the Center is much stronger now than it was a few years ago. I think now that we are getting younger rabbis. We used to have older men as rabbis and they stayed forever. And now young ones come and go. But we still get young ones and I think that makes a difference. I think they’re reaching out. The younger rabbis that are coming out are more hip to what the young people want and we have introduced singing groups, guitar groups and drama into the synagogue, things that the young people want. I think that if we do that it is important that we do that. As we do that we are going to get that back. I feel that we are revitalizing with more summer camps with Judaism in it, religious school camps, institutional camps with more emphasis on religious activities. I don’t know what statistics say, but I think it is getting stronger. I can see it when I talk to the young kids. I think they have a closer feeling (some of these 15-16 year olds) about their religion than their parents do–those in the mid 30s or late 30s. And I think it’s good and I think it’s important. I have never been the one to say I think we have a strong future here. I don’t think we are going to get many more Jews because Jewish people don’t seem to travel towards the State of Oregon. The older people go to Florida or California, where the weather is nice and I don’t blame them. The younger people, unless its some kind of a profession that sometimes they have to seek outside the state of Oregon. So that’s why the Jewish population hasn’t grown. We have people coming here but we lose as many as come in. That doesn’t bother me too much. I don’t think quantity is nearly as important as quality. It never bothered me if a class was large or small. It was just what results you got out of the class.