Lottie Hirsch Goodwin

Reich: If you could just start out by telling me your maiden name, birthdate.
GOODWIN: My maiden name was Hirsch. At the time in Germany my name was Lieselotte Veronika Hirsch. I was born in Karlsruhe, Baden, now Baden-Württemberg. And, my birthday is November 20, 1916.

Reich: Can you tell me about the other members of your household?
GOODWIN: Yes, I have an older sister and then we had a brother. My sister was born in 1914 and my brother was born in 1915. 

Reich: What were their names? 
GOODWIN: My sister is Friede (she was Elfriede) and my brother was Karl Werner, known as Werner. 

Reich: And how about your parents?
GOODWIN: My parents. My mother was Jenny; her maiden name was Mendershausen. And, she came from North Germany. And my father was Heinrich Hirsch later Henry Higdon in the United States and he was born in Karlsruhe.

Reich: Can you tell me about your family’s social and economic background?
GOODWIN: Yes, I would like to start with the marriage year of my parents because it leads into World War I and all kinds of complications then. And they were married in 1912 and they were well-to-do. My father had a factory making military uniforms and they lived in Karlsruhe. My sister was born in February 1914 and six months later the war broke out. The First World War. My brother was born in 1915 and, as I said, I was born in 1916. And my father’s business was doing very well and then came German demilitarization and the end of making military uniforms, so business wasn’t doing all that well any more. But he changed he was making uniforms for the railroad and uniforms for the post office and so on. And, also some equipment for the scouts which was wonderful because we were scouts, my brother and I. And we got all this nice equipment.

Reich: What kind of scouts?
GOODWIN They were usually Jewish boy scouts or Jewish girl scouts. Already at that time.

Reich: Was it a Zionist group?
GOODWIN No. No Zionist group. And of course there was high inflation and difficultly getting food and difficulty keeping the household together during that time. But somehow my parents managed, particularly my mother. She – we never knew that we didn’t have food in the house, which some people were deprived of that. And that went on and Hitler got stronger and came to power in…

Reich: Can I go more slowly on the family? I’m curious, was your family middle class before the war and after the war?
GOODWIN: I don’t know whether you call it middle class or upper class, but they were very well-to-do before the war, which I never and also they were probably middle class after the war.

Reich: Were they involved in the Jewish community?
GOODWIN: Not particularly no. We belonged to a temple, but I think that was the extent of it. We belonged to a German–what was called–a Jewish turnverein; it was an exercise club. 

Reich: A Jewish exercise club?
GOODWIN: Exercise club yes.

Reich: What was the neighborhood like?
GOODWIN: It was mostly not Jewish. I don’t remember. I only remember one Jewish–one or two Jewish families living in our street; it was a long street.

Reich: Was it comfortable between Jews and Gentiles?
GOODWIN: Yes. We didn’t have particularly connection with the neighbors but we weren’t bothered by them.

Reich: Can you tell me a little bit about the city? The size? 
GOODWIN: The city is maybe 200,000 people. It’s a very nice city. It was … I don’t know. It had parks. It had… It was the seat of the government. It had a castle. It had the government of this particular state. It had a castle. It had a theatre. It had concerts. It had everything of that kind. Culturally it was very well thought of.

Reich: Were you particularly aware of the Jewish community? 
GOODWIN: No. Not really, particularly. We went to grade school and we were just part of the school system at the time. Later on it was different.

Reich: The public school system?
GOODWIN: Public school? Yes.

Reich: What was it like being Jewish in the public school?
GOODWIN: I never felt that I was different than the other kids until, you know, I was in high school later on when Hitler came to power. That was different. But in the grade school it didn’t make any difference. And, we were in grade school only until fourth grade, and then we went to high school. Which was not public like here. You had to pay for it.

Reich: Did you have separate religious studies in public school?
GOODWIN: Yes, in my particular grade were very few Jewish girls, and of course girls and boys couldn’t go to any class together. Public school was separate too. So once a week, the teacher from the Jewish community came and a few kids from this particular grade came to one school and had their instructions. It was very strict.

Reich: Did you learn Hebrew?
GOODWIN: . I learned Hebrew to the extent – I hated it – because they were so strict. I learned Hebrew to the extent that I can follow the prayer book but that’s the extent of it.

Reich: Did they teach Yiddish? Or did you just know Yiddish?
GOODWIN: No, no. Yiddish? No, there was no Yiddish. There were some Jewish people living on the other side of town and they spoke Yiddish as well as German and Polish.

Reich: Were they more religious?
GOODWIN: Yes.

Reich: Do you remember, or do you have any specific memories of Jewish holidays, that you celebrated? Or went to synagogue?
GOODWIN: Yes, well, we had Passover in our house and it was a very long ceremony because my father was very well versed in Hebrew and we were not. So he had to read it in Hebrew and then he had to read the whole thing in English. And, the ceremony was lengthy, but, we were rewarded by wonderful food. And, we celebrated Rosh Hashanah. We celebrated Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur was nice because, well, we didn’t have to fast until – only half a day as children. But then we started fasting in between the—what we used to call Anbeisen — butwhat do you call that here? You get your small pieces of bread and little sandwiches and then there’s a break and then you get your meal. But between the first course to ease your hunger we went for a walk and we visited. And this was wonderful. It was really nice, because by that time we weren’t hungry anymore. We could wait. And we celebrated Hanukkah, but not like here. We got presents one day only and then the other days — we got enough presents –. I’d never counted it. I don’t know if we got eight presents or not but we got presents. It was nice. And then the other days we sang and the other days my father would walk with us through the apartment and we were singing the Hanukkah songs, and that was the second day until the last day. No more presents. That was very nice. We never missed out on this. I never felt that I missed out on anything.

Reich: You remember lighting candles?
GOODWIN: Yes, lighting the candles.

Reich: Can you tell me anything about your synagogue? Do you remember the name of the temple?
GOODWIN: I have to go back to Hanukkah because we were not lighting candles; we had a beautiful oil candelabra. It had a silver backing. Then it had eight lions sitting there and it was filled with oil and the wick and then up here was a shamus and that was very festive. I think all it said was, “Jewish synagogue.” I don’t remember ever hearing the name of it.

Reich: Do you remember going to synagogue?
GOODWIN: Oh, yes. I was confirmed in that synagogue, which was only for girls like bar mitzvah was only for boys at that time.

Reich: Was it Reform or Conservative? Were the women separated from the men?
GOODWIN: Yes, the women were sitting upstairs, but not anymore. The synagogue has been rebuilt and I didn’t like it.

Reich: Have you seen it?
GOODWIN: Well, yes, we went back by invitation of the government of the city and of course the synagogue had been burned down. It was very strange what happened. They were burning down the synagogue on Kristallnight and then they had to come and extinguish the blaze because they remembered there was an oil storage nearby [laughs]. So later on they wrecked it.

Reich: So the whole thing didn’t burn down.
GOODWIN: They didn’t let it burn because they would have had a big explosion. I thought that was very strange. It’s nicely landscaped the front of it with a memorial plaque. But they did build another synagogue elsewhere.

Reich: Were you involved in any secular activities: sports, politics?
GOODWIN: No. In sports, yes because we had this what we called turnverein, which was founded in 1903 and my father was the president. And so when we were four years old we were immediately enrolled in this exercise club. It was big. By that time my father wasn’t president anymore but they went out for sports. And they had – they met with other cities and they got together and competed amongst themselves. Went on hikes with the teacher, very good teacher and very true to the Jewish community. He was not Jewish.

Reich: But he stood by the community?
GOODWIN: He was devoted to the Jewish community.

Reich: Do you remember his name?
GOODWIN: Yes, I even have a picture at home. His name is Herr Freuster.

Reich: Do you remember hearing anything about Palestine before the war? Was there discussion about it?
GOODWIN: Yes, there were long discussions about it everywhere. People were getting ready to go into youth Aliyah, trying to get there through any means possible. It wasn’t possible very often.

Reich: But it was popular?
GOODWIN: Yes, it was very popular.

Reich: Did your family discuss making Aliyah?
GOODWIN: No, because we had–my father had–a lot of cousins here in the United States and we eventually, you know, knew that we hopefully could come to the United States. Not everybody was that lucky.

Reich: Was your family involved in any trade unions or political organizations?
GOODWIN: Trade unions? No. No, we weren’t.

Reich: Do you remember the Communist movement?
GOODWIN: Yes. I remember that very well. The Communist movement was very strong and they made a lot of noise and they were also, at times, destructive and there were skirmishes in the city between the Nazis and the Communists. They destroyed, I think, the Rathaus , the city hall at one time.

Reich: The City Hall?
GOODWIN: I think so. Yes.

Reich: Did you witness or see any?
GOODWIN: Pardon me.

Reich: Did you witness, did you see any of the skirmishes?
GOODWIN: No. This one particular one was indoors

Reich: You read about them in the newspaper?
GOODWIN: Yes. 

Reich: Was your father in the military in World War One?
GOODWIN: No, my father was supposed to be in the military, but being in the business he was in, he was excused.

Reich: There was no problem in World War One with his business?
GOODWIN: No, not until the demilitarization. I have two – one of my uncles, who lived in North Germany, was 17, 16, or 17 he was in the war. He enlisted. I think he lied about his age. And, another cousin, too, was in the military lying about his age.

Reich: They were anxious to go into the military?
GOODWIN: Yes, in the First World War. 

Reich: I’m interested in memories that you have about relationships between Jews and Gentiles and how those relationships maybe changed or didn’t change.
GOODWIN: At the time? I don’t think we had any relationship. We were friends or friendly with the gentiles, but we weren’t friends. I don’t remember having any Gentiles—I had Gentile girlfriends in school but that only lasted so long.

Reich: So most of your family friends were Jewish?
GOODWIN: Yes.

Reich: Did you ever experience any antisemitism at that time?
GOODWIN: Before Hitler?

Reich: Yes.
GOODWIN: There must have been because we would have had non-Jewish friends, close friends. We had non-Jewish friends, but they were not close. There must have been. But I wasn’t aware of it.

Reich: You don’t remember any segregation on the buses or anything?
GOODWIN: Nothing like that, no.

Reich: What were your family relationships like?
GOODWIN: They were very good. Then in my immediate family? They were just fine. We had the usual skirmishes being older or younger, but that’s in every family. We were a very close-knit family. We had relatives in the town and they had children the same age and we’re still friendly. Even so they don’t live here (I mean the ones that are left) and we had a lot of friends.

Reich: Did you have a large extended family?
GOODWIN: Well, not large, but enough to say it’s a family. They all moved away, of course. One family moved to Tunis, Africa and ended up in Israel and there’s nobody left now. They all died. But they were there for a long time.

Reich: What about your grandparents?
GOODWIN: My father’s parents died when I was a little girl and my mother’s parents were deported. They lived in North Germany in my mother’s birthplace, then moved to Karlsruhe, our town, and then were deported to Gurs with my mother.

Reich: I’d like to hear more about how things started to change when the National Socialist parties came about, and started to become powerful, any memories that you have about it?
GOODWIN: Well, you couldn’t do things anymore. It changed slowly. It went all over the years of, you know, from ‘28 maybe until Hitler came to power. It changed but it was very subdued. After he came to power it wasn’t subdued. It was very, very violent and people were already taken to concentration camp at that time. You couldn’t do anything. Actually, we had a fairly good time because the Jewish community provided the kids with things to do like we had a place where we could play ping-pong. We went on hikes; we met in a Jewish café. One couldn’t go to other places anymore. So we really didn’t feel deprived. We just knew we couldn’t go there anymore. People were taken into custody or into concentration camps and we knew that and we stared at the house where they lived.

You could take the streetcar. You could go to the zoo or places like that, but you couldn’t . . . You had to interrupt your education and when you still went to school people—the kids—didn’t talk to you.

Reich: When was that?
GOODWIN: That was well from the time Hitler came to power until I left school, which was I think was in ’34. When you wanted further education there was no place to go to and you went some place else like a Jewish finishing school in a different city, which was very nice. You know, your parents arranged these things and you weren’t feeling deprived actually. You could buy food anywhere you pleased. 

Reich: So things became uncomfortable in schools.
GOODWIN: Very, yes.

Reich: And then later on and you had to leave the public school system?
GOODWIN: Well, there was no sense, you know, going because it would have been more uncomfortable going on than leaving.

Recih: So you decided or your family decided that you were going.
GOODWIN: As people were getting ready, the young people were getting ready to leave. 

Reich: To leave Germany.
GOODWIN: My husband left in 1936. He had very close relatives here in Portland so he had a place to go to and a job waiting for him.

Reich: So families were sending their children.
GOODWIN: Mostly, yes, mostly the children especially the boys and the girls too, when they turned 21 because they were drafted into the army at 21. And, the army was very uncomfortable. If they were drafted you never knew if they were coming back.

Reich: Did you hear stories of Jews that were drafted into the military?
GOODWIN: No, I didn’t. They tried to get out, the ones that we knew. I’m sure that happened. And my brother left in 1937. He turned 21.

Reich: Was the military specifically uncomfortable for Jews?
GOODWIN: Yes, particularly.

Reich: What do you think was happening?
GOODWIN: Well we thought that they would never come back. We don’t know what happened. If they made it through the training they were sent them to wherever is the most dangerous or they shoot them from the back. Who knows?

Reich: Were there any discussions among your family members about trying to leave Germany?
GOODWIN: Oh, yes.

Reich: Why did you want to get out?
GOODWIN: Well, the Nazis did some really bad things already at that time and my father’s business was taken away from him. He got a pittance for the business and he tried to make a living going into the insurance business then.

Reich: He was forced to sell his business?
GOODWIN: Yes. They set the price. 

Reich: He did?
GOODWIN: Not he, the Nazis did.

Reich: The Nazis set the price?
GOODWIN: Yes, that was quite common.

Reich: What kind of discussions were going on in your family about the Nazi party and Hitler?
GOODWIN: Well, we knew it was very bad for the Jews and some people said, “It’s going to blow over; its going to go away but let the kids get out of here before, if possible.” Not all the young people were able to get away. I had some cousins they moved, I believe, to Munich and she got married, she stayed with her parents. And she was deported to Warsaw with the parents. So, not everybody was as lucky as we were. We were waiting for our number to come up in the Consulate and we could go.

Reich: Did you see the war coming? Did it seem like that was …
GOODWIN: Not really. Not until I came to the United States. 

Reich: When did you come to the United States?
GOODWIN: I came in 1938.

Reich: Before Kristallnacht?
GOODWIN: Yes. Just three months earlier.

Reich: Do you remember the passing of any of the Nuremburg laws or any specific events?
GOODWIN: Yes, about prohibiting Jews to conduct business or any of these things.

Well, he one thing they took people prisoner and there was a Socialist, very prominent by the name of Marcus? I’m not quite sure of his name anymore. He was a lawyer; he was very outspoken. And one day they came and they had flatbeds. And they put him on the flatbed and they had a gallows. And a rope around his neck, they didn’t pull, and they had a parade through the city. There were other people too.

Reich: Did they hang him?
GOODWIN: Not there. Later on he died in a concentration camp. We found some books in Germany that were written about him. He was very prominent.

Reich: So they paraded him around the city with the rope around his neck?
GOODWIN: Yes, on the flatbed. This is just about the worst I remember.

Reich: Was there a lot of discussion among Jews after that event about leaving? What was going on?
GOODWIN: I don’t know because people… I’m sure there was because people didn’t want to give too much information because otherwise somebody took away from somebody else. They kept pretty much to themselves. The families talked about who goes where and then the children out to school in Switzerland, too. I was in Switzerland going to school in Geneva for one year before I went back to Germany, which was a fluke because when I came back I was in Basel. I didn’t have any money, German money, and I went out of the train trying to exchange the money, which I did, and when I came back there were the Nazis who had inspected the train, “Heil Hitler” and lady gnadefrau or lady gnaden fraulein and they let me into the train and nothing was inspected. I think I was lucky.

Reich: Were they looking for Jews?
GOODWIN: Well, they probably wouldn’t have let me back in. And I went back to Germany and my mother and I went to Stuttgart to the Consulate to get my number, which I got. And we went back getting ready to leave. I had everything, ticket and everything. . And the Nazis called me to their headquarters a certain time appointment and I went to this building rang the doorbell you went up the stairs. It was eerie; there was no window. There was a bannister and stairs and you knew you could only go up; you couldn’t go back. Probably had surveillance in there. And I got to where I had to go and they interrogated me, “What are you doing here?” and so on and then, “Where are your papers?” And I had them. And one man felt sorry for me and he said, “Well, she’s leaving anyhow, let her go.”

Reich: Which city is this?
GOODWIN: Pardon me.

Reich: Which city?
GOODWIN: Karlsruhe, the city where I lived.

Reich: I’m a little confused. Your family went to Switzerland?
GOODWIN: No, I did.

Reich: Now how did you decide to go to Switzerland?
GOODWIN: Because I went to school in Switzerland, in Geneva. And my sister lived in Geneva. She was married already, also going to school.

Reich: To a Jewish school?
GOODWIN: No, University.

Reich: University. What did you study?
GOODWIN: Education.

Reich: And you were going to Switzerland because you couldn’t study in Germany at that time?
GOODWIN: That’s true, but also because it was outside of Germany and my parents weren’t quite ready to let me go.

Reich: So you went to study and then you came back and you got papers to come to the United States. When was that?
GOODWIN: 1938. I almost didn’t make it. [laughs].

Reich: So you slipped out at the last minute. You said your brother also . . .
GOODWIN: My brother came in 1937. He had a free trip back; so did my husband. By way of the United States Army.

Reich: Is there anything else during that period of time of the rise of Nazi power that you want to tell me about, any events?
GOODWIN: There probably are, but I can’t think of them. Oh, yes and no, when I was in high school, the great thing in the Third Reich was the book burning, forbidden books. And my mother and I took out books. We had a coal stove in the kitchen and every day we burned some books because we didn’t want to be – you never know when you were searched. So that’s what we did.

So I was still in high school and one day there was a great book burning in the forest, which is right behind the Schloss Castle and everybody had to go. So another Jewish girl and I asked if we could be excused. No. We had to go to the book burning. I remember the fire. I can still see the fire. It was very scary. Everybody was singing but us, and we decided to leave. So we left and the next day I had to go to school, and I was very worried what would happen. The teacher overlooked it; never said a word.

Reich: The whole class was forced to go?
GOODWIN: Yes, the whole school.

Reich: And the people in town or was it was especially for the school?
GOODWIN: It was for everybody but the schools had to swell the attendance. You know, if the schools go then you have large attendance.

Reich: Did the school bring books from their library to burn?
GOODWIN: I don’t know.

Reich: What kind of books were they burning?
GOODWIN: There were Jewish authors, Communist authors, anything that speaks against the Third Reich, against Hitler.

Reich: Then it was very uncomfortable?
GOODWIN: It was. Very uncomfortable.

Reich: What were they singing?
GOODWIN: They were singing songs from the Third Reich, raising their hand “Heil Hitler” and all that sort of thing.

Reich: Were there Nazis sort of running the show?
GOODWIN: I don’t know. I’m sure the Nazis were running the show. Otherwise it wouldn’t have happened. Somebody gives the order, “Burn books.”

Reich: What books did you burn at home?
GOODWIN: The same, well we didn’t have any Communist books, but we had books by Jewish authors or books that were on the black list. I don’t know which authors anymore.

Reich: So there was a list of books that were not allowed?
GOODWIN: That’s right.

Reich: So, how did your father support himself and the family after he lost the business?
GOODWIN: He did that insurance business and then that wasn’t for too many years. I’m not sure what year he lost his business. It must have been ‘32, or ‘33, or maybe ‘34, so it wasn’t very many years that he had to try and support the family.

Reich: Was that a difficult experience for him to lose . . .
GOODWIN: Oh yes. His father had the business already. He never complained. He wanted his family to not be suffering and that’s what he did. 

Reich: How did things change in your neighborhood?
GOODWIN: They really didn’t. We went – they were just the same. We moved twice during that time when we . . . first we had a very large apartment and then we had a medium sized apartment then we moved again. And that was to cut expenses. But the apartment wasn’t small compared with American standards. They were just generally bigger. . It was big enough; it was a nice place.

Reich: Did you move into a Jewish neighborhood? 
GOODWIN: No, we didn’t. We only had Jewish neighborhoods in the other part of town sort of a Jewish neighborhood, but not really.

Reich: Well, why don’t you tell me about coming… or getting your papers and leaving Germany?
GOODWIN: Well, getting the papers was fairly easy. My mother prepared everything while I was away and we went to the Consulate and waited our turn. You got your papers and you got your, not from the Consulate of course you got your ticket by boat. No airplanes at that time. . I left from Amsterdam. But first I had a big trunk. My mother packed for me. You had to apply for permission to pack and somebody came and watched you from the Nazi party.

Reich: What were they looking for?
GOODWIN: Yes, I had a Leica camera which belonged to my uncle and we packed it under laundry before we smuggled it out.

Reich: It was illegal to take a camera with you?
GOODWIN: Yes. So this man was very nice. He turned his back and let us pack and we could do what we wanted. 

Reich: Why didn’t they want you to take a camera do you think?
GOODWIN: You couldn’t take anything of particular value. That was then. The camera arrived here. I used it; it wasn’t mine. I took some nice pictures [laughs].

Reich: Did you have to bribe anyone at any point?
GOODWIN: No. You couldn’t. And if we would have bribed this man I would have been in jail. That was one thing we did. And then my mother took me to Amsterdam by train, of course. She had a very pretty necklace with a pendant and she gave it to me and she said, “You take that with you.” Well, I put it on, and wouldn’t you know it, the border patrol comes and I had it underneath my collar so it wouldn’t show. They looked, they examined your papers and they looked at you and the necklace showed a little bit. You weren’t supposed to take those things and my mother nearly fainted. She didn’t say anything, and the man didn’t see it.

Reich: So, he didn’t take it?
GOODWIN: No, they would’ve taken me with the necklace too [laughs]. Anyway the necklace to this day is in this country. I don’t have it; I have something else. So then I came over with the New Amsterdam which has been replaced by the New Amsterdam II. It was a very modern ship at the time.

Reich: Do you remember the train ride?
GOODWIN: No, not particularly. It was fairly uneventful, except for the border.

Reich: What happened at the border?
GOODWIN: With the necklace.

Reich: How about the boat, the New Amsterdam?
GOODWIN: Oh that was fine. That was not German property anymore. German ground. That was fine. My brother was here already in New York picking me up and at that time there was a law in the United States that no woman can enter the country unaccompanied. And so I was sitting there. Everybody was gone and out of the big ship except me then my brother came. He was worried. I couldn’t get off the ship by myself. That was against the law.

Reich: Did they explain why?
GOODWIN: No, they didn’t say anything but we found out later on what the problem was.

Reich: What was it?
GOODWIN: That no woman can leave the ship, or enter the United States unaccompanied and I was alone.

Reich: Were there a lot of Jews on the boat with you?
GOODWIN: I don’t know. I know there were some Jews.

Reich: Were there different… what class did you ride in?
GOODWIN: I don’t know what class it was. There were two more beds in this cabin. It was fairly nice; it wasn’t a big cabin. It was fairly small. It was a nice cabin.

Reich: I’m asking because I’m wondering if there was….
GOODWIN: Steerage or something?

Reich: Third class or something? Were there a lot of refugees on the boat?
GOODWIN: Other boats going to Cuba from Germany had steerage. My father went steerage to Cuba.

Reich: I know that you have a lot of—there’s a story about your family.
GOODWIN: That’s alright, I can wait.

Reich: Well, this might be a good time for you to tell me about your family’s story and what happened to them.
GOODWIN: Well where should I start? You already have the first part of the story.

Reich: What happened after you left?
GOODWIN: Well, three months later was Kristallnacht and then all the men over 60 were taken, under 60 were taken, under 65 and small children were taken into custody and my father was sent to Dachau. And he was close to 60, but not yet. And, at that time my mother got him papers to go to Cuba. . . she tried . . .The United States papers were already in the making, but it took time and so she did find a way to get him to Cuba. When these papers were out, he was released. I don’t know how long he was home, not very long. And he went steerage to Cuba and he was in Cuba, I believe, for two years. And then was able to come to the United States. Now when he came to the United States, he was again detained because by that time he was over 60 and we had to give a bond—so much money–and then he could come; then he could enter the United States.

Reich: Did he describe his boat ride to you?
GOODWIN: No, he never talked about it.

Reich: Did he ever tell you about Dachau?
GOODWIN: No, he didn’t. He just said that – the only thing he said is they had to stand in line for a long time.

Reich: How long was he there?
GOODWIN: Three months.

Reich: Do you know if it was difficult to get him out or having the papers was enough to get him out? Did your mother have to bribe anywhere?
GOODWIN: No, you couldn’t bribe anyone. Well, he went – he stayed in New York for a while and then his brother-in-law, my uncle, who lived in Tulare, California and had a business, and he needed someone—a bookkeeper. And so, he went by train to Tulare and stayed there for a couple of years and got himself a better job in Fresno, California, and that’s where he lived from then on until he died. It was quite a long time yet. And my mother moved in with her parents.

Reich: In the same city?
GOODWIN: They moved from their little town in North Germany, where they could not stay because they were the only Jews in this particular town (as well as my uncle who lived in Tulare). And my uncle moved to Berlin at the time and the grandparents, my mother’s parents, moved to Karlsruhe. And there was no opening for a woman on this ship my father went with so she stayed with her parents and there was an opening on another ship and that left from Hamburg. So she went to Hamburg and she was told that there was a ship going to Cuba that couldn’t land—what was the name of that ship? The Saint Louis or something, there’s a long story about it—the people jumped into the water and they weren’t going to go back to Germany. The boat didn’t land; they said it would go back to Germany and I think it eventually went to Holland. There’s a long story about this and books written and movies. And this was the ship right after that my mother didn’t go on. She went back.

So eventually the year after Kristallnacht they were deported to Gurs. The grandparents and my mother and I am not sure. I thought she was there longer, but I found a tape that really belongs to my husband’s family where I said something as if she were there in Gurs for one year. But I’m not sure. I know that she was there. And she had – my grandparents were with her. My grandmother died in Gurs and my grandfather went to another place in a monk’s retreat or something like that and eventually and he lived there and died there and I have some literature which shows it. . . .

Reich: They were hiding them?
GOODWIN: No. I don’t know if they were hiding them that was outside of Marseille. He lived with them quite openly and he went into the little town nearby and run some errands until the last year before he died. And I don’t think they – they were protecting him, I think, but not exactly hiding them. Well, my mother got her papers to the United States and she went to Marseille to a hotel –the German word is Auslandereungz Hotel— it was an emigration hotel, and waiting for the papers to the United States

Reich: Sorry, she went to Gurs and then she went to Marseille?
GOODWIN: Yes.

Reich: Ok. Did she have a hard time getting out of Gurs?
GOODWIN: I’m sure she had a hard time getting out there but that was, the papers helped. When you get emigration papers and a place on the ship, it helps to get out. Anyway, there was a big room like a dormitory and she lived there waiting for everything to get finalized. The Nazis came and the Nazis took everybody out of this room, but her. Why they left her, we don’t know. And took them. Sent them away. So my mother was friendly with the concierge and that was a life saver because the Nazis came again and they stood in front of this room and they said, “Who’s in there?” And the concierge said, “Nobody, you just took everybody.” And they never opened the door. So after they were gone, my mother fled. She had the address of cousins of my father, a young couple with children, and she went there

Reich: To Marseille?
GOODWIN: In Marseille. And they wanted her to stay with them because the man was a rabbi, and the woman had two small children and she was mostly alone. And what the rabbi did was looking after the children who were placed with non-Jewish families in the country, and he had tefillin in his knapsacks, and when the Nazis stopped him, they said, “What is this?” and he said, “Toys for children.” One day they found out that it wasn’t toys for children and that he was Jewish. And they never saw him again.

So they – the two women, the younger woman and the older women, and the little kids stayed together until the end of the war. And my mother didn’t have a ration card; she wasn’t supposed to be there. But it worked out. The family moved back to Paris where they originally lived and my mother went to Meursac, which is a small town where they have a children’s home. And my mother was very good in sewing. So she was in the sewing room and she was mending and fixing the things for the children. We found out where she was. We sort of always knew where she was through somebody in Sweden. Meanwhile my brother was in the military and he was in Paris and he knew were this Meursac was.

Reich: In the American military?
GOODWIN: Yes. He went to the PX and filled up his knapsack with anything he could think of—Spam, everything—and he found her. And it was a great reunion. He opened up this knapsack on her bed, everything was falling out. She thought it was manna from heaven. Then later on in life when she came to the United States she didn’t like Spam anymore. But at that time it was wonderful. So then the papers got ready again for the third time I think and she came to the United States just at the time when I was telling Eric, and I have the newspaper here when they were getting ready for “I am an American Day,” and my father sent into San Francisco newspaper his essay and he won the prize, so they had him come to San Francisco and he was greatly honored. Maureen O’Hara read his speech and that was just at the same time when my mother was coming over to the United States.

Reich: Did you know all the time that your mother was alive?
GOODWIN: Not really. We had a cousin; my father had a cousin in Sweden. He had a lot of cousins. [laughs] So we kind of knew but we weren’t always sure where she was or that she was still living. It’s a great miracle that all five of us came to the United States under the circumstances.

Reich: Was your father in a refugee camp in Cuba?
GOODWIN: No. No. He lived in a pension. I don’t know where the money came from. There were so many cousins, probably one of them helped. No, he wasn’t—at the time, I don’t think they had refugee camps in Cuba. So then it was very strange, the whole story. My mother lived in Fresno for 30 years and my father probably the same length of time.

Reich: And did everyone come back to Fresno?
GOODWIN: No, I got married and I lived here in Portland. And my sister lived in Vermont and then later on in Los Angeles. My brother lived in New York. We made trips of course. That was… My father was a very intelligent man; he got himself a job in Fresno. He was over 60. He spoke fluent English and his math was excellent. He didn’t need a computer; I don’t know what he would do with a computer except he was not handy. He probably wouldn’t have been able to work it. He could do all these things so that’s how he got himself a job. He worked for ten years.

Reich: What do you remember about during the war and at the end of the war when did you first heard about the Holocaust in the camps and deportations? When did you first become aware?
GOODWIN: In the ‘30s. Early ‘30s.

Reich: Before you left Germany?
GOODWIN: Oh yes. That’s why people leave. Dachau was there. Cousins were taken to Dachau and then to, I think, to Buchenwald and it was scary. But, when you’re young, you know, you think it can’t happen, it’s not going to happen to me.

Reich: When did you first hear about the full extent of the Holocaust?
GOODWIN: Well, it’s very strange. When I came to the United States in 1938 I had a job in a family taking care of a little boy, and the parents asked me, “It can’t be true what’s happening in Germany; it’s made up.” And I said, “It’s very true. It’s not only very true, it’s a lot worse than you can read in the papers.” People didn’t believe it. We knew. It got worse as it progressed. But, we knew.

Reich: Did you have members of the extended family who died in camps?
GOODWIN: That’s the ones who moved to Munich and then my mother’s family. My grandfather had a very large family and most of them….He had, I believe, twelve sisters and brothers, and I think only one survived. I don’t know what happened to the other ones. Well, we knew because they disappeared and nobody knew where they went and never heard again.

Reich: What happened when you came to the United States?
GOODWIN: Well, I had this job you know, with the little boy, and then I worked in a children’s home, and then I discovered NYU and night classes [laughs]. Then I became an x-ray technician and that was all in New York City.

Reich: Did you find New York to be a welcoming place for you? Were you involved with the Jewish community there?
GOODWIN: No, I wasn’t but I thought New York was wonderful! You could do so many things and nobody told you, “no.” You could go to coffee, free concerts and all kinds of things that were free. I thought that New York was just it, just really great. Then later on I found out it isn’t so great. It’s still wonderful to visit.

Reich: Did you experience any antisemitism in New York, getting jobs or anything like that?
GOODWIN: , I don’t know. I worked in the Brooklyn Jewish Hospital, so being a Jewish hospital one wouldn’t.

Reich: What do you remember when you were in New York when the news broke about Auschwitz?
GOODWIN: The liberation and all of that?

Reich: Yes.
GOODWIN: I don’t know. I don’t remember because we knew about these things. I don’t know if the general population knew about it but we knew because we had in a smaller way experienced it. So it was eerie. My husband was in the army for four years and he brought back pictures of a small concentration camp his unit liberated. He didn’t, we gave it to Mrs. Frankel and I couldn’t even look at it. They were on a shelf all those years and a few years ago when this center opened; we gave it away.

Reich: Were you ever approached by American Jews or Gentiles about the Holocaust in 1945-46? Did people ask questions about it?
GOODWIN: Not really. I think that the people I knew all knew. I knew, of course, a lot of people who had similar experience that I did, and they knew. They were just you know very relieved that it was over and hoping that thing could never happen again. Who knows? I hope not.

Reich: Did people talk about it at all?
GOODWIN: No. The people who come from Europe and have connections to survivors very rarely want to talk about it. They wanted—like I couldn’t look at these pictures, I know I should. I just couldn’t do it.

Reich: Was there a lot of fund raising to bring refugees to the United States and support them?
GOODWIN: Here?

Reich: Yes. Do you remember?
GOODWIN: I don’t remember that.

Reich: So you worked as an x-ray technician and you eventually got married?
GOODWIN: Yes, I knew my husband from Germany and he came to see me in New York when he was in the Army. Then after the war when he was back in Portland we got married. I came to Portland.

Reich: What year was that?
GOODWIN: 1940. Well I came here in 1946, but we got married in 1947. A long time ago.

Reich: What do you remember about the founding of?
GOODWIN: My family? Not very much. They were – the cousins were older. They had a bad time. They went to Tunis and we were in contact with particularly with one cousin she was quite a bit older. Her brother was at least ten years older than this cousin and by the time I was aware of people and old enough. He had already left our hometown, so I hardly ever knew him. He and his wife who was Swiss went to – he and his wife who was with – Kinneret in Israel and I never met him. I must have seen him a few times in Germany, but I liked his sister and we corresponded. She was doing, she wasn’t an ordinary kibbutz person; she did, she took care of beauty care and she did that for many, many years.

Reich: Hair?
GOODWIN: Care of—the hair and the nails. All that kind of thing. And she was very well suited. She liked it; she sent pictures of the kibbutz. I was hoping that I would see her, but she had just died shortly before I went to Israel to visit. So, I never met her again. Her younger brother lives in Lyon, I believe and I have no connection with him. I wrote to him and he connected with my brother, but when I wrote to him, he never answered. 

Reich: Did your relatives in Israel ever tell you about the war of Independence in 1948?
GOODWIN: No. Oh, this is the one thing: I have three first cousins who live in Israel and they came quite late. I don’t know, I have never understood why they live in Israel but they like it.

Reich: You came to Portland, and you got married and had children?
GOODWIN: Yes, we have one daughter, but she’s long grown.

Reich: What’s her name?
GOODWIN: Helen

Reich: How old is she now?
GOODWIN: She’s 43. My cousins, Israeli cousins, live in Ashkelon. One of them, the younger one, has two daughters who live in a kibbutz nearby and she had two children and then she had triplets [laughs]. That made the news.

Reich: Did you become an active member of the Jewish community in Portland? Did you become involved?
GOODWIN: I don’t know. I’m a member of the Council of Jewish Women and I used to be very active, but now I’m only a little bit active. And I’m a little bit involved in the Jewish Community Center. They had me – what did they do? The Jewish seniors the Monday club, just asked me to be on their board. So I went to one board meeting. But otherwise, other than that, I’m really not involved.

Reich: I’m really interested in hearing any ideas or philosophical explanations you have for your experience, or any, do you know what I’m saying?
GOODWIN: How I feel about it?

Reich: Yes, in retrospect, how do you think about it? How do you explain it to yourself? How do you explain it to others?
GOODWIN: Well, at first I pushed everything away. I don’t want to think about it. I don’t want to hear about it. I just want to be today and tomorrow, or maybe yesterday, but not – I don’t want to hear about what happened and what happened to people and to my family or difficulties of any kind. But, not anymore because I feel now it’s part of me, it’s part of my history, and I don’t have to dwell on it every night,, I don’t have to think about it every night, but it’s part of me and therefore I can now talk about it or look back. But because you cannot divorce yourself from your past, it’s always with you, even though it’s not visible that it’s there and I don’t feel that it’s there, but it is.

I feel very good about, you know, being what I am today. I don’t have . . .This is just something that hopefully was unique and now we have all these other things like ethnic cleansing which is un—I can’t understand how this can happen.

Reich: Talking about the Ku Klux Klan?
GOODWIN: Not here in this country. In other countries, in Europe ethnic cleansing, in Africa. It’s the same thing.

Reich: Do you have a message . . .?
GOODWIN: No. I can tell you I have a message of just trying to think about what you’re doing and try and decide to do the right thing and be in a hurry to just do it; be very deliberate, you know, whether you’re taking a chance or not, you still have to be deliberate in trying to do the right thing. You can’t do backwards. You can’t go backwards. It’s impossible; nobody has ever done it. You want to hear about our trip to Germany?

Reich: That would be great.
GOODWIN: It was courtesy of the City of Karlsruhe.

Reich: I would love to hear about it.
GOODWIN: Well I think it must have been in 1988, something like that and we got this letter from, I wrote to Germany and I said so many cities have this what about Karlsruhe? Well, they never answered this letter because they already had worked on an invitation to all the people they had addresses from, and I made copies of this letter and sent it to everybody who may or may not have gotten it. We thought about it, should we go or not? And I said to my husband, “Yes.” They paid for it. We should go. So we went. They paid for the plane trip and they paid for one week’s stay in a very nice hotel. And they picked us up and they had people trained, women who were trained to be the leaders your companion for the bus trip or for whatever you did. And they had, they spoke a very good English and they took you to the hotel and they gave you not very much money, but some money so you could eat your lunch. They paid for your dinners, they paid for your breakfast. It was really uncanny. And they had festivities going on with the Burgermeister (Herr Doctor So and So) have letters from him. Speaking and other people. It was a big dinner. They apologized for the terrible things they did in Germany. And then we, they took us around. They took us through the city.. They took us to what is called Majolica factory, a very famous porcelain factory. They took us there. 

They took us to the new synagogue. We had a dinner there and we attended the service, which was very different from what we expected. We went to the, we went to where we lived. We went to the house where we lived at first. It had changed into office buildings, but it was still there. We went to the second house where we lived; it was still there. And the third apartment, they were all there. We went to my husband’s apartment. We didn’t go into any of them. It was still there; it wasn’t bombed out. The city was very heavily bombed. 

We went to my two schools that I went to and they were still there. And I went into the high school, and the steps were still going like this [gestures] only a little more so. I felt like I was back in time. It was the same steps; it was the same hallway, it was the same doors. Everything. The same gym hall, the same clock [laughs]. So it was just like going back into time except the city was, the school was co-educational.

Reich: How did you feel about going back and seeing these places?
GOODWIN: It was strange. The city had been bombed heavily and had been built out – built up again and so it was basically, the city was built like a fan with a castle in the center and the streets going this way [gestures]. And the basic outlay or layout was still there but the city had changed because it had been rebuilt and there were so many people that you were just lost in the main street. It was like you know where you are but it’s different. We had a nice time; it was strange. I expected to have a pretty bad time there. They had a market with flowers and wonderful fruits and vegetables, bakeries, unbelievable. We went to the zoo; we went to the gardens. It’s different, but it’s all there.

Reich: So you felt pretty good about the town’s attempt to…?
GOODWIN: Well, it was sort of like a new town, a different town. I didn’t feel so badly about it. I thought I would. “Let’s get it over with.” Somebody said – I said to somebody, “This city is spending a lot of money on us.” And the answer was, “Not enough.” Because they took away much more and they can never repay it. They had an exhibit of Jews of Baden, which was from the early times when the Jews came to this area until persecution even part of persecution. It was very well done.

Reich: You felt welcomed back?
GOODWIN: Yes. We felt welcomed back. There was a strange thing that happened. We had, we missed – we bought all the newspapers and all the write-ups on this gathering for 500 people. One newspaper we missed out on so we went to the newspaper place. We wanted this newspaper because there was a write up on Gurs with a picture and I never had had any before. The young lady went into the back to get it for us and there was this tall blonde young man and he was waiting for something. It turned out to be a German who had married a Jewish girl and the German and the Jewish girl was a sabrah. 

And this young man had met her in Stuttgardt because in Palestine, in Israel they can go to the German universities, I think for free. And so this young woman did it, and so the children are being brought up Jewish and they are going to services and he’s a young German. And the father of this woman was a Communist and when it got too hot he left and ended up in Israel. And his family lived in Israel and now they’re back in Germany.

Reich: What kind of people were speaking at the event?
GOODWIN: It’s officials like the Bergermeister and people like that.

Reich: Were there any former members of the Nazi party?
GOODWIN: Oh no. Not that I know of. I don’t think so. They wouldn’t let anybody in.

Reich: Well I think that’s all. Eric. Anything [to add] Eric?
Harper: Yes, I’m going to have to go back and get some more details. So why don’t we take a break?
GOODWIN: Ok, you want to know some more?

Harper: Pardon.
GOODWIN: You need to know some more?

Harper: Yes.
GOODWIN: Oh, can I undo, unclasp [the microphone]?
[recording is paused and resumes]

Harper: Ok. I want to start by asking you, you mentioned that there was a section of town where Yiddish speaking Jews lived. Did you have relations with the Yiddish speaking Jews? Can you tell me anything about them?
GOODWIN: No. I know they didn’t have very much money. That is why they lived there. That’s the only thing I know.

Harper: Did the German Jews not associate with them?
GOODWIN: There was really no connection between those two factions.

Harper: And, I want to go back and get some more detail about when you first heard of Hitler and what your parents’ reaction was. Do you remember the first time you ever heard of Hitler?
GOODWIN: It must have been around ’28, probably that he was a power in Munich at that time. He did that Putsch. I’m not sure, but you heard about him on and off for quite a long time.

Harper: And at that time was, did your family, do you remember discussing it with your family?
GOODWIN: No, I don’t think I was old enough then to be included in the discussion because not like here in this country one discusses those things with the children.

Harper: Did you overhear your parents discussing anything?
GOODWIN: They made remarks about this. One thing I remember, so I was older already, and we had a radio. You know, not everybody had a radio. And, we wanted to listen to Strasbourg to the news, and my father came and turned it off because we weren’t allowed, not as children. This was illegal to do. Strasbourg wasn’t too far from our hometown.

Harper: When do you remember your family first becoming concerned, when did you first hear discussion?
GOODWIN: I think it must have been at least the latest 1934, if not earlier, because then he became – he came into power in 1934, so it must have been earlier, probably 1930s that we were concerned about it.

Harper: Tell me about that.
GOODWIN: I can’t tell you very much about it, except that one heard remarks like, “It will blow over.” “It can’t be.” “It cannot work.” People just didn’t believe in it.

Harper: Before 1933?
GOODWIN: Before 1933, yes.

Harper: Did your life change at all? Was it affected by the rise of . . .?
GOODWIN: What was affected?

Harper: Was your life at all affected by?
GOODWIN: Before, no. It really wasn’t.

Harper: And then tell me more specifically after ’33, ’34, what happened besides your father losing his business?
GOODWIN: You were not wanted anymore in many places. I mean your earning power went down. Your social life changed. Mine didn’t really change that much but you were restricted as where you could go. And you were wanting, you were thinking of leaving the country. And the older people said, “Well, we can stay. Nothing will happen to us.” That’s why so many of the parents stayed in Germany and the young people got out.

Harper: So tell me more about your family’s discussion about leaving? When did you start discussing leaving?
GOODWIN: Well, as I said, when the boys became 21, if at all possible, people tried to send them out of the country. And which happened – my brother was sent out when he was 21. My husband was sent out by his family when he was 21. I was sent out too when I was 21.

Harper: So that’s what the arrangement was. You would go and your parents would stay and try to get out later?
GOODWIN: Yes, they took their time or they said, “Well. we can stay here. Nothing will happen to us”, which of course was not so. And then, you know, they had to go through all these things and it was something one couldn’t visualize that it would happen. Some people went to Israel or Palestine at that time.

Harper: Was that decision difficult to break up the family?
GOODWIN: It was very difficult for my mother because you bring up three children and you send them away. You don’t know what happens, where they go. It’s not like when your parents are here in Portland, and somebody goes to New York. Because you can come back. But when you go from one country under those conditions, you may never see your children again.

Harper: Did you want to leave?
GOODWIN: Yes, I was looking forward to it. It was not that hard for me. I really wanted to leave. It was getting more difficult and more restricted in Germany. And then I had my brother here. That was – it wasn’t like I hadn’t anybody. And, then we had some other relatives here who didn’t do anything for me, but at the time it felt good of having them.

Harper: Can you tell me again then what happened to your parents? Your father was arrested, taken to Dachau?
GOODWIN: Yes, that’s right. And, then he had, he got out because my mother got him passage and papers to go to Cuba. That was before, long before Castro, of course.

Harper: At that time, was your mother making arrangements for herself to get out?
GOODWIN: Yes.

Harper: Do you know why she chose Cuba for your father?
GOODWIN: Because his papers weren’t ready, his immigration papers to the United States and he had to wait a certain number of years to get his papers. I think it had to do with the immigration number. You had to get a certain number and , when you had, your number came up, you could immigrate if you had all the other specifications. And my father didn’t have that. So he, Cuba at that time took refugees.. My mother didn’t go. She had ticket for a boat that left after this one that had to return from Cuba and she didn’t go.

Harper: What year did your father leave? Do you remember?
GOODWIN: Well, let’s see. He was 30—well my mother was still with her parents. So it must have been in ’38. Wait a minute, ’39 because Kristallnacht was’38 and he was there for three months. That makes it ’39, and then shortly after he left.

Harper: Did your mother have her ticket ok? You already said that you mother had her ticket to leave already and her papers.
GOODWIN: On the next boat.

Harper: And then can you tell me again then what happened?
GOODWIN: She didn’t go because of the uncertainty of not being able to land in Cuba. And she went back and stayed with her parents in our hometown. And the following November they were again arrested and shipped in cattle cars to Gurs and she stayed in Gurs. I don’t know if it was one year or two years or three years. The other tape says one year, but that may not be so, so let’s say two years maybe. And her mother died in Gurs of dysentery and she got out because she had papers or papers waiting to this hotel in Marseille and my grandfather went to this other place with the monks where he stayed until he died. And, then this thing happened you know, with… The Nazis came and took everybody out of this room for shipment to wherever, Poland. . .

Harper: Excuse me, was this in France?
GOODWIN: In France, in Marseille in this immigration hotel. They didn’t take her and she stayed and when they came again, when she came again the concierge said to the Nazis, “There’s nobody in that room you took them all.” And, they went on their way. Then she left and she had the address of this young couple with the children and she spent the rest of the war years with them.

Harper: Do you know if she was in hiding or if she lived freely?
GOODWIN: She didn’t live freely but it was probably hiding because if she could have lived freely, she would have had a ration card and I know she didn’t have one. So she could probably only go out at night.

Harper: So it seems remarkable that your grandfather and your mother were sort of living in hiding in France . . .
GOODWIN: I don’t know whether my grandfather – he was in this small town with the monks, whether he was really in hiding or whether they just accepted him as he didn’t look Jewish. He didn’t speak any French, though I don’t know. Because it was such a small town, whether that was all right. But, he was well taken care of there.

Harper: And then when did your mother leave France?
GOODWIN: For France or for Germany?

Harper: From France.
GOODWIN: From France. I think it was 1945. It was after the war. Of course, it had to be. It must have been ’45. She came to New York. I was still living in New York. And then my brother had just been—whatever it’s called—out of the Army and he took her to California and had a great reception. It was eight years they were separated.

Harper: When you were married, did you have a Jewish wedding?
GOODWIN: Well, we had a very small wedding. At the time, that was in 1947. Then in January it was in the Temple in the Rabbi’s office and that was Rabbi Berkowitz.

Harper: What temple is that?
GOODWIN: Beth Israel.

Harper: Were you a member of the synagogue?
GOODWIN: Of the Temple, yes. Alfred had an uncle here. His name was Sam Bissinger and he was a bachelor. He lived in the Benson Hotel. He died in 1964. He was a very staunch member, and helped found the Temple and do whatever you do when you’re a supporter of the Temple. If we wanted to, we wouldn’t feel like we wanted to belong to another congregation, which would be OK too. But we have strong ties with Beth Israel.

Harper: Great! Thank you.
GOODWIN: OK!