Stephanie Gerst Douglas

Frankel: Good evening. I’d like to begin by asking you to state your full name, date, and place of birth.
DOUGLAS: My name is Stephanie Paula Gerst Douglas. Gerst was my maiden name.

Frankel: Can you spell it? 
DOUGLAS: Gerst [spells out]. I was born in Wuppertal Elberfeld, Germany in 1936.

Frankel: Can you tell me something about your family, your parents, grandparents on both sides, and the names of your parents and where they were born? 
DOUGLAS: Certainly, my father was the oldest child in a Polish family and when he turned 17, his parents packed his clothes and shipped him off to Germany, the reason being that the Poles had the habit of using Jewish boys in the front lines, to catch the bullets. It was sure death for a young Jewish boy to be conscripted into the Polish military. So, to save his life they sent him off to Germany.

Frankel: What year was that? Do you know’? 
DOUGLAS: No, I don’t.

Frankel: Was it World War One at that time, or was…? 
DOUGLAS: I don’t know. I think the Poles were in skirmishes with the Russians. I think there has always been some border fights and I think this is where they would have sent him.

Frankel: Where in Poland did your father come from? 
DOUGLAS: I should know but I don’t. I don’t.

Frankel: What about your mother? 
DOUGLAS: My mother was the oldest daughter of a family of five. I don’t know much about her past. She at some point ended up in Germany working as a secretary at the Russian embassy where she met my father.

Frankel: Where did she come from? 
DOUGLAS: Poland, Poland.

Frankel: Did you know your grandparents? 
DOUGLAS: No.

Frankel: Do you know the names of your grandparents? 
DOUGLAS: I think I was named after my grandmother.

Frankel: Maternal? 
DOUGLAS: Yes, I think so.

Frankel: What about the names of your parents? 
DOUGLAS: Yitzach Gerst, and my mother was Rita Daiczer

Frankel: Can you spell her last name? 
DOUGLAS: There are like fifty spellings of it, but I think Daiczer [spells out].

Frankel: OK. Can you tell us a little bit about their education, and the community in which they lived in Germany when they arrived there? where in Germany they lived when they first came? 
DOUGLAS: Not very much. I know so little. My father apparently enrolled in school and became a horticulturist (and also a Zionist) when he was a young man. He subsequently became disillusioned with the Zionist movement and became a staunch Communist. I guess he was doing very well in the Party and would be sent around the country to recruit for the Communist Party.

Frankel: When he enrolled in school, do you know where it was in Germany? 
DOUGLAS: No.

Frankel: You don’t know. 
DOUGLAS: I know nothing, absolutely nothing. I know he was alone in Germany.

Frankel: And siblings, uncles and aunts of yours? 
DOUGLAS: Yes, I’ve met them. There’s one surviving aunt, my father’s sister, she was the young est.

Frankel: Did she remain in Poland? 
DOUGLAS: She remained in Poland, and was in a concentration camp for four years. She then moved to Austria and after Austria she came to the States. She lives in the United States now.

Frankel: What is her name? 
DOUGLAS: Regina Kleiner.

Frankel: You said your father studied to be a horticulturist. Did he practice his trade? 
DOUGLAS: No, he did public speaking and recruiting for the Communist Party. He was a public speaker, and I know he had a men’s clothing factory that the gave him as a front, because it was illegal apparently to be a member of the Communist Party and to work for it.

Frankel: Now was that before he married your mother? 
DOUGLAS: I believe it was before because my mother was a secretary at the Russian embassy where they met, and I know when they met she had been divorced and she was about five years older than my father.

Frankel: Do you know anything about her first marriage, if she had married in Poland or Germany? 
DOUGLAS: I know he was an author and he emigrated to the States. I think his last name was Katz, that’s as much as I got. 

Frankel: OK. So what kind of education did your mother get? 
DOUGLAS: I don’t know.

Frankel: You don’t know. Do you know how much training… [unclear] 
DOUGLAS: I have no idea. I know when my father was arrested she continued his work. She did the speaking and recruiting, and I even remember being at some meetings.

Frankel: Do you know when they got married? 
DOUGLAS: It would be probably 1935, thereabout.

Frankel: Did any of your mother’s siblings live in Germany as well, or do you know any of their names? 
DOUGLAS: Yes. Yes I do. Helen was one of the sisters, and her husband was Ludwig Mandelbaum. They eventually ended up in Israel and Aunt Helen took care of me in some ways when my parents were gone. There was Henry who ended up in Paris France. He died recently. There was another brother in France and a sister Sarah. I’ve met all of them. I don’t know the other brother that well but I know Henry and I’ve met Sarah, and I know the children. I keep in touch as much as I can. 

Frankel: So they got married in ’35. Did your mother continue to work at the embassy Russian embassy as a secretary after that?
DOUGLAS: I don’t know, I don’t know, I was just born a year later.

Frankel: Right. Do you have siblings? 
DOUGLAS: No.

Frankel: You were an only child. 
DOUGLAS: Right.

Frankel: Tell us a little bit about your childhood and growing up, education, politics in the family, economics. 
DOUGLAS: Yeah, There’s a lot that I could tell you about my parents.

Frankel: Oh, please. After that time? 
DOUGLAS: Yeah, yes, well a little bit before there are some things that you would find in records. My father was arrested by the Germans when Hitler came into power.

Frankel: In 1933? 
DOUGLAS: No, it world have been after that. It would be somewhere in the late spring of 1936. There was a big trial in Germany. They had about a hundred political enemies, you know people that were working against Hitler, about a hundred of them. And of those 100, 96% were executed, based on that trial. And four were able to plead for their lives and survive, and one of those was my father. This is what my aunt tells me. So he was sent to prison, and he was there for four years. That would have made it 1941.

Frankel: Do you know where in prison? 
DOUGLAS: I know I was there. I went to visit him once. But I don’t know what the prison was, but he was supposed to have been released at that time and they found out that he was Jewish as well. So they shipped him off to a concentration camp, and all I’ve got from that is a letter that he had written while at camp.

Frankel: So you basically grew up without a father? 
DOUGLAS: Oh yeah, that’s right.

Frankel: Now when you say you recall visiting him was it far, did you have to travel far, do you have any recollections of that? 
DOUGLAS: I was a very small child at the time. I remember visiting him and I remember he slipped me a present, and I remember the guard came in with his food, and they served him in a basin. It was a white enamel basin, and it looked like… I can’t describe it. It was awful looking. That was food. But I think they served that to all the prisoners at the time.

Frankel: Do you actually remember visiting him in his cell?
DOUGLAS: Yes.

Frankel: Did your mother talk much about your father as you were growing up, when he was still in prison? 
DOUGLAS: I don’t remember. I think she must have because…

Frankel: Do you know any details about his arrest? In other words have you heard stories about it? Can you tell us a little bit about it? 
DOUGLAS: Yes. Well he was arrested because he was a member of the Communist Party. When they came, I was about three months old, and my mother was there holding me. They were supposed to have arrested her too, but whoever was the arresting officer decided not to arrest her because of me. So they took him but they left my mother and I at that time.

Frankel: It was after Hitler came to power, your father didn’t hide and he continued to do his work and using that…
DOUGLAS: I think they did all that underground, I don’t think it was an open meeting. I think it was a very secret kind of meeting.

Frankel: Did you read anything about those trials, the trial that took place? Can you tell us little bit about it? 
DOUGLAS: No. I have tried to block out as much as possible. I’ve seen the devastating effect on people who relive everything that has happened, and have made that the focus of their lives and I chose not to do that, so I could have a life beyond that. 

Frankel: Do you recall stories being told to you, that after your father’s arrest, was you mother more cautious in terms of hiding possibly? 
DOUGLAS: Oh yes, oh yes. And she was warned a couple of times apparently, and she was, yes she was very careful and apparently she took me to foster homes, so that she could continue her work, or his work, and it was very difficult for her. I met a lady who had left Germany and settled in Australia, and she told me that just before they left Germany, and it meant sneaking out across the borders, before she left, she had wanted to say goodbye to my mother and somehow they had decided to meet, to see each other one more time And they met in a public restroom and talked across the stalls, and that was their last, the last that this woman ever saw of my mother.

Frankel: Do you know a little about the work, the more detailed work that your parents did terms of recruiting members? What exactly did they attempt to do? 
DOUGLAS: I think they were trying to get people to join the Party and support it; they were definitely trying to oust Hitler.

Frankel: So was it also an armed kind of resistance? 
DOUGLAS: Oh, no. No, no, no, no. This was just meetings and speeches and gatherings. And once in a while I guess I ended up there and I’d be paraded. I was the only kid in the room.

Frankel: Were both your parents German citizens? 
DOUGLAS: I don’t know that.

Frankel: Do you recall the address of the house in which you lived early on? 
DOUGLAS: No. I just remember some of the things that I’ve seen and have a few pictures. I remember the elevated trains. I remember the apartment that my mother and I had. It had rooms and it was the type of a place where you walk into a building and then walk all the way through the building to the back door. You go out the back door and then you come in to yard. And then you go across the yard into another building and up the stairs, and there was the apartment. The bottom part of that building was that factory that my father had had but it wasn’t in operation, as I remember.

Frankel: When you were born already Hitler had been in power for three years. Do you recall your earliest recollections of growing up in terms of witnessing things that were going or around you, beyond your immediate family? 
DOUGLAS: I remember the Nazis marching. I mean this was very dramatic: the boots and the steps. I remember the fear and the uneasiness. It was kind of pervasive. I didn’t understand it; I was a child. But I remember it.

Frankel: Your parents said they were Communists. Was being Jewish part of your growing up or any religious rituals or? 
DOUGLAS: No. I didn’t really know that I was Jewish or I didn’t know what being Jewish was. I know my father, after he left Zionism and became a Communist he also became an atheist. But when he got into a concentration camp he went back to Judaism. And he became very religious again.

Frankel: Was he raised as an Orthodox Jew in Poland? 
DOUGLAS: I don’t know if I could say it was Orthodox but it was definitely much more traditional than anything I’ve experienced.

Frankel: You were very young when Kristallnacht happened in November of 1938. Were you told many stories of what happened in your town? Or do you recall, do you have any memories? 
DOUGLAS: No, no. It wouldn’t be anything that I could relate to. The earliest recollection that I have of real problems was when the Gestapo started closing in on my mother and she had to flee the country because they were about to arrest her. I remember going by train, my mother and I and a couple of little suitcases. It was nighttime when I usually would be going to sleep, and it seemed that we were in the train for an awfully long time. Then we got out and we were met by someone who must have been the guide. And we marched across the border, and I knew what a problem there was because I knew my mother was afraid. I couldn’t talk, they kept silencing me, and this man apparently knew his way through the mine fields, or whatever the Germans had put in by way of obstacles to keep people from going across borders. And he knew the way through, and I remember going under barbed wire and over barbed wire and through barbed wire. Every few feet there was another barbed wire fence, and at one point there was somebody coming along in a motorcycle. And the guide took his hand and just threw me down on the ground, and I didn’t say a word. Normally I would have howled. And I just didn’t say thing. We waited until he got through and then we continued. And at dawn we reached Holland.

Frankel: Do you recall when that was or what year? 
DOUGLAS: ‘41.

Frankel: ’41. So, had your father been released or sent to a concentration camp already at that time? 
DOUGLAS: I don’t know. I know we stayed in Holland for about six months.

Frankel: What city in Holland? 
DOUGLAS: It was a little farm some place, that’s all I remember. And the country was awfully flat. And I know it was Holland because of the windmill. We stayed in Holland about six months and then my mother said we were going to Belgium to be with her sister Helen.

We took the train from Holland to Belgium. After we were there for a few days, I don’t know how long, my mother was able to arrange a place for us where she said we could be safe, some place in the country where there’d be rose bushes and a goat. And we went to visit. She wanted to say good bye to some people before we left for the country, some place in Belgium. We were there for a little while and there was a knock on the door. In came two Gestapos, and they asked her if she was Rita Gerst and she said yes. I remember by then was screaming and howling, and trying to kick them. And they pulled a gun and she had to show ID, and they just took her away. And the people that owned the apartment, they were trying to figure out what to do with me. They thought they should keep me. And I ran out into the street and somehow found my aunt. I don’t know how I did it, but I kept walking through the streets until I found my aunt in Brussels. Shortly after that I was sent to an orphanage.

Frankel: In Brussels? 
DOUGLAS: Yes. My aunt had two boys and Jews weren’t allowed to work at that time so my uncle, the only thing he could do was deal in the black market. It really didn’t provide enough to feed a family and extras. So I ended up in an orphanage.

Frankel: Was it a Jewish orphanage. 
DOUGLAS: No, oh no. And they didn’t know I was Jewish and I was put in school and my aunt was trying to keep me in school because Jewish children were not allowed to go to school. She went to the orphanage and begged them to keep me in school, and when they found out I was Jewish, out I went. I was taken out of school. There were about 50 kids there.

Frankel: In the orphanage? 
DOUGLAS: Um hmm.

Frankel: Now the school was separate from the orphanage?
DOUGLAS: No, it was part of the orphanage. They just had a teacher there on the premise who would teach. 

Frankel: So, once they found out you were Jewish you could no longer stay in the orphanage?
DOUGLAS: No in the school. 

Frankel: In the school. So were you the only Jewish child there.
DOUGLAS: No, there were about four or five of us there. And I was the youngest, so they got to be the teachers and I got to be the student, and I learned anyhow.

Frankel: Now back to Holland where you said you lived for six months. How did your mother support herself and you and were you living alone or with a family?
DOUGLAS: We were living with a family I believe, and I don’t know how my mother supported herself, but I know she was; there was never any shortage of food in the house.

Frankel: And until you went to Belgium you had never been to school. 
DOUGLAS: Right.

Frankel: Did you speak German with your mother? 
DOUGLAS: Yes.

Frankel: And in Holland do you remember having difficulty communicating because of language? 
DOUGLAS: I don’t remember speaking to anyone except maybe the family that was there. I remember so little of that. I spoke German when I was in Belgium until I got into the orphanage and then of course everybody was French-speaking, so I had to learn French.

Frankel: When had your aunt arrived in Belgium? 
DOUGLAS: She must have gotten there a year or two before.

Frankel: Did you ever find out how the Gestapo found your mother and what they were after? 
DOUGLAS: My aunt said my mother was on their wanted list. It wasn’t just because she was Jewish that they were after her. My aunt told me that the people that were where she came to visit turned her in. By the time I found that out I was an adult in the States. When I was young it never occurred to me to even question that.

Frankel: And what happened to your mother? 
DOUGLAS: Well she was taken to a concentration camp, and I have no, I don’t know anything. I just heard that she got sick and died within a couple of years. I don’t know.

Frankel: What about your father? Did you hear anything after 1941? 
DOUGLAS: He survived. I heard this from people who were liberated, who came out and told. He survived till the Russians were at the city gate and the Germans were trying to move the camp. There was a forced march and my father couldn’t go on and they shot him.

Frankel: Tell us a little bit about the orphanage. What do you recall? Was it in the city of Brussels? 
DOUGLAS: Yes.

Frankel: Now Belgium had been invaded in 1940. What were the conditions then? Were you hiding from the other children that you were Jewish? Did only the teachers know? 
DOUGLAS: Well, I didn’t know what being Jewish was. I mean I knew I was Jewish but it didn’t mean anything to me. At the orphanage, I don’t think they cared. It was run by a husband and wife who had complete freedom as to how they would run the place and they were reasonable I suppose in many ways. They also took whatever you came in with and sold it. I remember I was there for four years. I remember always, always being hungry. I had no shoes. I used to rummage through the garbage cans in the hopes of finding something. There was just nothing. But it wasn’t that I was particularly selected for this or because I was Jewish. This was the fate of all the kids in the orphanage. We all had the same kind of fate.

Frankel: Can you describe the building? Was it a big house?
DOUGLAS: It was two main buildings with a courtyard, and then the kitchen was a little bit separate. They had a couple of farm animals. They raised some pigs, chickens.

Frankel: Was it in Brussels? 
DOUGLAS: Yes. Yes.

Frankel: In the city itself? 
DOUGLAS: Yes.

Frankel: Was there staff beside the couple? 
DOUGLAS: Yes, I don’t remember how many, but there were like a half a dozen people there that were involved. There was somebody cooking. There were two teachers and a secretary.

Frankel: Were the dormitories where you slept in for boys and girls? 
DOUGLAS: Yes. They separated the boys and girls. And it was dormitories. We showered in cold showers. I didn’t see a toothbrush till after the war. There were trees there; it was a big courtyard with trees and they were trying to have some gardens to raise a few vegetables.

Frankel: Since you were not allowed to go to school, how did you spend your day? 
DOUGLAS: Played with the other kids, the kids that didn’t go to school.

Frankel: Do you recall names of the other girls with you? 
DOUGLAS: No.

Frankel: Do you remember being very lonely or having friends? Did your aunt come and visit you? 
DOUGLAS: Once in a while I would spend a night or two with my aunt. Yeah I was lonely, sure very.

Frankel: In what ways did you feel that there was a war going on? 
DOUGLAS: Oh, there was no doubt about that. First of all, there’s a line of communication. You hear whatever’s going on, even though I didn’t have access to newspapers or anything like that. The other thing is I remember very clearly the Germans used to send over the V-2 rockets, and they didn’t always hit their target. I guess they were aimed for England. They very often would fall in Belgium. I remember those kinds of things, and I remember spending more time in the cellars, the bomb shelter kind of thing, or diving under things. It took me a couple of years when I came to this country not to look for a table to dive under when I heard a plane overhead. I still have that reflex.

Frankel: Were the people who ran the orphanage Christian? Did the other kids go to church? Were there any religious rituals, Christian or other that you recall? 
DOUGLAS: No, I don’t remember any religion being practiced, except I remember they used to have a Christmas party, and I didn’t know what Christmas was. But I remember we got piece of candy and they would bring out a couple of toys colorful boxes or something like that. And we each had something to play with and at the end of the evening it was collected again and saved for the following year.

Frankel: The same toys? 
DOUGLAS: The same toys. [Laughs]

Frankel: Do you have any recollections of being excluded by others because you were Jewish even though you didn’t know what Jewish meant? 
DOUGLAS: No. I had a recollection of when I got into the orphanage I was the youngest. I was five and they were all older. I had to learn to fight.

Frankel: Do you recall when you entered the orphanage not understanding, and not speaking the language? 
DOUGLAS: Oh, yes, oh yeah it was hard.

Frankel: Were you the only non-Belgian? Were there other foreign children? 
DOUGLAS: I think they were all, at least they were French-speaking, and there was a slight change from time to time of the people, or the kids that were in there, but not much.

Frankel: Did the Gestapo or the Germans ever stop or enter, looking at people at the orphanage? 
DOUGLAS: No, the only thing that happened was, across the street from the orphanage there was a big building that had been used as a hospital, and I guess when the Germans moved their troops or whatever. They decided they needed one of the buildings from the orphanage for their own soldiers, for their wounded. And they just took it over and the orphanage I guess had to scramble to find another place for the kids.

I think they had something, and then I remember after that I guess they had to retreat and they were trying to load as much into their trucks as they possibly could. However, those trucks wouldn’t move with all that, with all the stuff that they had loaded on to it. And it was well known that the Germans took anything that they wanted, whatever would belong to anybody was theirs. They took whatever they wanted. And they were just stuffing those trucks and the trucks wouldn’t move. So they had to unload it again. And I remember this scene of the screaming and the hustle and bustle of the Germans trying to retreat.

Frankel: You remember going out of the orphanage, taking walks, going beyond the limits of the building? 
DOUGLAS: Not really, we didn’t do that. We really didn’t.

Frankel: At night for instance.
DOUGLAS: Oh no.

Frankel: Did you have to run to the shelters, were there any?
DOUGLAS: Well, the shelters were the basements of the buildings.

Frankel: So do you recall being awakened at night? 
DOUGLAS: Oh yes, the sirens were constant, those sirens. I remember those rockets had a characteristic sound, there was a roar you could recognize it. You must remember that if you were in Belgium…

Frankel: [question indistinct] 
DOUGLAS: Oh. It had a characteristic noise. And then when the engine stopped, and they were going to descend, it would be silence, and then there would be, when they got close to impact or hitting the ground, there was this whine, this awful whine. And if you ever heard it once you’d remember it. So, I remember hearing the sirens going and I was heading towards the shelter and then I heard this whine and I was at the top of a full flight of stairs, stone steps. And then there was this massive impact and the next thing I knew I was at the bottom of the steps, not a scratch, never got hurt. Somehow I was catapulted down a whole flight of stairs and I don’t remember a thing.

Frankel: Did your aunt practice her Jewish religion in any way? 
DOUGLAS: Not till after the war. That was the first time I had ever been in a synagogue.

Frankel: What happened then at liberation, when did you leave the orphanage? 
DOUGLAS: I remember the bells ringing all over Belgium – the Germans were gone. And shortly after that I was sent to a convent to fatten me up. By then I was quite malnourished. I went to get fattened up. I think the church was the only place where there still was food. And I remember being in this convent for a few months with the nuns with their habits and those magnificent headdresses. I remember going to church every morning at five. At 4:00 on Sunday. I learned at the convent that I was bound for hell unless I was baptized and unless I had a confirmation and a communion. I remember coming home to my aunt saying to her, “I’ve got to convert to Catholicism.” I was nine years old. And she looked at me and she started to laugh, and that was the last of my conversion efforts.

Frankel: So after the few months at the convent did you stay with your aunt? 
DOUGLAS: No, I went to an orphanage run by a Jewish organization, and that was a good place.

Frankel: Was that in Brussels too? 
DOUGLAS: No, that was in Profondsart, Le Chateau de Prolonsari; it’s near Limal. It was a wonderful building that was converted into an orphanage. The orphanage was run by a Jewish woman doctor. We were being trained, I guess, or prepared to go to Israel as soon as we could, as soon as it was allowed. I was there for three years and at the end of those three years my aunt came to me at said, “There are some cousins in the United States that want to bring you over and have you with them.” She said, “You can do that, or when we go to Israel, you can go to Israel with us but we may not be able to take care of you, and you’ll have to live in a kibbutz,” And I said my aunt, “Well, do those people have a dog?” She said “Oh, yes.” I said “Then I’ll go to the dog, I’ll go.” [laughs]

Frankel: That must have been quite a change from not having done anything Jewish not knowing anything to go a Jewish orphanage. 
DOUGLAS: Yes.

Frankel: Did they also teach you about religion? Did they practice? Did they celebrate holidays? Can you tell us about that?
DOUGLAS: No, I don’t remember celebrating the holidays. But I remember I got some medical care. Apparently, I had some problems and I was given some physiotherapy and my ear drum kept rupturing because I kept getting infected and they took care of it. We were taught Hebrew, and we learned Jewish songs. It was the first time I became part of organization where you had a chance to voice your opinion. They were very concerned about our adjustment, and of course I went to school in the village.

Frankel: So that was the first time you actually went to school? 
DOUGLAS: Yes.

Frankel: Who were the other children in the orphanage? 
DOUGLAS: Other Jewish orphans; they were all kind of gathered. I don’t know who funded this. 

Frankel: Do you remember the name of that woman doctor you mentioned who hi… [unclear] 
DOUGLAS: I think her name was Jaffe; I could be wrong. I’ve got a couple of pictures. It was a beautiful place and they really tried.

Frankel: Now was the reason your aunt couldn’t take you in was because of economic reasons?
DOUGLAS: Yes, mostly.

Frankel: How were they able to survive the war in Belgium as Jews? Do you know? Did they have to hide out? 
DOUGLAS: Oh yes. They kept underground. My uncle dealt in the black market, I’m sure. I think they put their kids in a boarding school. One of them got deported. I remember that quite well. His name was Arnold. He was the older of the two boys that my aunt had. I had gone to visit my aunt that weekend and they were all fussing over him because he had to report to a certain point where he was told by the Germans to report. And I kept saying, “Don’t let him go.” Because by then I knew what the fate was. And she kept saying, “We have to.” And then my cousin Arnold was fighting with his mother. She wanted him to take a sandwich and he didn’t want to take a sandwich. She wanted him to take some plums. I remember this bag of plums. He was a kid. He didn’t want the plums. So, he left, and he left forever. I mean that was it.

Frankel: Back in the orphanage do you remember the year till when you were there? From liberation was it after the [difficult to hear]. 
DOUGLAS: The Jewish orphanage at Porfondsart? It would have been 1944 to 1948.

Frankel: Now was it established after the war? 
DOUGLAS: Oh yes, oh absolutely.

Frankel: It was not a hiding place? 
DOUGLAS: Oh no. No, no.

Frankel: Now who were those cousins in this country who were willing to take you, to bring you over? 
DOUGLAS: My paternal grandfather had two brothers that came to the States.

Frankel: When? 
DOUGLAS: Oh, before Hitler. And their children were the cousins – one of them.

Frankel: Growing up, from your aunt, were you aware of having relatives abroad? 
DOUGLAS: No. Aside from my aunt and uncle I didn’t know I had another relative in the world. And I didn’t really find out that there were more members of the family, and of course at that, it was hard to know who survived. It took a while to get together with everyone after the war. That in itself was a very difficult task. I found out that my mother had some siblings, living brothers and sisters in France, in Paris. My aunt took me there for a visit. I must have been there, I don’t know, six months, and my aunt said, “They want you to stay there rather than go back to an orphanage. What do you think about that?” And I said, “Can I have a pair of roller skates?” And there was no way, I mean, they just couldn’t afford it. I said “I’m going back to Belgium.” [Laughs] I had seen roller skates because in the orphanage there were people from the United States that would write and send gifts to kids in Belgium. And one of them had gotten a pair of skates. There was nothing in the world I wanted more than a pair of roller skates.

Frankel: Were you aware that your mother wasn’t coming back when you went to the orphanage, the first one? 
DOUGLAS: When the war ended and I was in that first orphanage I knew. I just knew. It wasn’t anything anybody had said to me. But excuse me [long pause]. I knew there was no chance.

Frankel: What, in your memory, marked liberation? What are your first recollections realizing the war was over? 
DOUGLAS: The bells, the bells.

Frankel: The church bells? 
DOUGLAS: Yes.

Frankel: What did you do, in other words, did you go out in the street? [unclear]
DOUGLAS: I did what I’m doing now. I cried. Like I said, I knew. At that time I realized that I won’t see my parents again.

Frankel: After three years in the Jewish orphanage, when you made the decision that you would go, or before you made the decision, were you comfortable with the idea that you were being trained to go to Palestine, to Israel?
DOUGLAS: Oh, yes.

Frankel: Were you aware that you had relatives there? You mentioned that an uncle or one of your parents’ siblings had gone to Israel? 
DOUGLAS: Yes, well at that time, that was my aunt in Belgium. As a matter of fact, she and her husband were planning to come to the United States. He had started since there were allied soldiers in Europe, he was converting his Belgium money into US dollars with the soldiers. One day, their only son at that point, said, “I’m going on a boat. I’m leaving this weekend. I’m going to Israel.” And he went. And they followed.

Frankel: You mentioned the first time you went to the synagogue. When was that and where was that? 
DOUGLAS: It was in Brussels. I remember the place was packed. I was with my aunt, and that’s all I remember. I didn’t know what it was.

Frankel: Was it before you went to the Jewish orphanage? 
DOUGLAS: It must have been because there wouldn’t have been a synagogue. I mean before, but after the war though.

Frankel: In the orphanage, since you were trained, it was clearly a Zionist training. Did you learn then about being Jewish? And did you enjoy it? 
DOUGLAS: Oh yes. Oh yes. Israel was very appealing. I don’t know why I even came to the States because Israel seemed so appealing at that point. It was really the Promised Land.

Frankel: You said you learned Hebrew. Were you actually able to speak the language? 
DOUGLAS: Oh no, it was just the beginning. We were just starting, just learning a few words and the alphabet, and reading and writing a little bit, but no, we were far from that.

Frankel: During the three years that you spent there, were all the children there, or were people leaving and going in different directions? 
DOUGLAS: A few, but most stayed.

Frankel: And so how did the trip over to this country actually happen? 
DOUGLAS: Well, my cousin, I guess, arranged with the Joint…. What was it? Joint Organization?

Frankel: Joint Distribution Committee.
DOUGLAS: Yes, to have me brought over and I guess somebody took care of all the paper work and passports and whatever and I ended up on a boat.

Frankel: On your own? 
DOUGLAS: There were two or three other children that left at that time.

Frankel: How old were you then? 
DOUGLAS: I was 12, a very small, underdeveloped 12-year-old. And I came across. And I remember the sailors. I was 12 years old, and the sailors were mostly Puerto Ricans. They were the handsomest men I had ever seen in my life, because everybody in Belgium was fair-complexioned and here were these handsome, dark-skinned fellows. I remember I got off the boat and I showed my new parents, my step-father, $10. I don’t know but somebody must have given it to me, I don’t know what it was. But you can imagine what went through his mind [laughs], especially after he had paid to have a chaperone go with me. Here I come off the boat alone with ten bucks.

Frankel: You mean he had paid for a chaperone but the chaperone never ….? 
DOUGLAS: Materialized. Somebody in their infinite wisdom decided that I could probably do just as well by myself. I mean how far can you go when you’re on a boat?

Frankel: From where did you sail? 
DOUGLAS: From someplace in Belgium. Would it be Antwerp?

Frankel: Possibly. 
DOUGLAS: Yeah, probably Antwerp.

Frankel: Do you recall the names of the other friends or the other girls or children who travelled with you, sailed with you?
DOUGLAS: No.

Frankel: You shared a cabin? 
DOUGLAS: No. No, no, no, it was big, dormitory– miles, rows and rows of bunks and everybody had different….We didn’t communicate that much. I’m wondering if at least two of them were related.

Frankel: So when did you arrive in this country? 
DOUGLAS: In June of 1948.

Frankel: In New York? 
DOUGLAS: Yes, yes.

Frankel: What are your first recollections after getting off the boat? How did you recognize people, how were they able to identify you? 
DOUGLAS: Yeah, I guess so. I don’t remember very much. I remember my step-sister. It was strange, but when I was in Belgium I knew that the streets were paved with gold, and that Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers danced down the street in formal clothes, and everybody else did too. I mean that was well known. And somewhere in there was somebody on a horse and there was an Indian riding. I had these visions of America. I had been seasick, of course, when I got here. I’d been seasick the entire time and I was very uncomfortable. I was very glad to get on land and I was concentrating the whole time trying to communicate with people who spoke English and I didn’t.

Frankel: Could you learn some English before coming over? 
DOUGLAS: I think I knew the word, “cow.”

Frankel: [question unclear] 
DOUGLAS: A little Yiddish.

Frankel: Yiddish? Did you grow up learning, speaking English or German? 
DOUGLAS: From German, ja.

Frankel: You talked about a stepsister. How old was she? 
DOUGLAS: She was five at the time.

Frankel: Were there any other children? 
DOUGLAS: No.

Frankel: Where did they live? Where did they…? [unclear] 
DOUGLAS: New York, Manhattan. My stepfather was a good surgeon, general surgeon. And shortly thereafter we moved to Westchester, New York. My step mother still lives there.

Frankel: Did they actually adopt you? 
DOUGLAS: No, no. 

Frankel: You went to school? Can you tell us a little bit about how it changed you? 
DOUGLAS: I did not adjust too well to family life in the States. It was definitely not a happy relationship. In five years I did 12 grades. And I needed to get into some other programs so I could be self-sufficient. I really wanted to study art but I was afraid I wouldn’t be able to earn a living as an artist, so I chose the next best thing, nursing. I became a nurse. I guess I was not an easy child, by then. And in nursing school I tried it all. I mean I wasn’t the best or most obedient student but I did fine and graduated.

Frankel: Where did you go to school? 
DOUGLAS: Jewish Hospital of Brooklyn.

Frankel: And you lived still with your step parents? 
DOUGLAS: No, I lived in the school. I lived with my step parents for five years, then I went into nursing school. After nursing school I went to live with my stepfather’s sister, while I continued my education. I met my husband and we got married.

Frankel: Did they live a Jewish life in terms of observing rituals and holidays? 
DOUGLAS: Yes, oh yes, yes.

Frankel: And did they try to give you a Jewish education? 
DOUGLAS: Oh yes, yes. I went to Sunday school, yes I did. And it was very interesting. That was my first exposure to it. I learned much more about Judaism when I had to take my kids to Sunday school. I became much more knowledgeable [laughs].

Frankel: Do you recall being asked questions in high school when you came here as to what you had experienced in Europe? Or was that something that people didn’t talk about? 
DOUGLAS: I don’t remember. But I remember I was really an emotional wreck, if that’s a good word. I did so poorly with people, relating to people in those years that I had very few friends. I didn’t get along with my step-parents. I hated my step-sister. We were fighting all the time. I didn’t get along well with people. I had a very hard time growing up.

Frankel: Did you keep in touch with your aunt after you had come to this country? 
DOUGLAS: My aunt Helen from Belgium? Yes. I went to see her one time.

Frankel: Was she already in Israel then? 
DOUGLAS: Yes, oh yes. I went to see her and to visit her in Israel. I remember going to Israel and meeting all of these relatives. I met members of the family that I had never known about. I was with my husband at the time, and two kids. And there were 24 of us around the table. And it took five languages for all of us to be able to communicate.

Frankel: While living here in this country, did you ever express the desire to your aunt that you wanted to leave, or did you feel you had a choice, since you didn’t get along? 
DOUGLAS: Well, after I found out that my suicide attempt didn’t work, I realized that my best course of action was to get the kind of an education that would make me self-supporting. Nursing did that very well. So I did want to get out but there seemed to be no real way to get out.

Frankel: Do you care to talk about this suicide attempt? 
DOUGLAS: Oh I was only… I think I was 14 at the time maybe 15. I took a whole bunch of aspirin. I don’t know how many. Then I decided that maybe I shouldn’t be doing this because I was so scared about what I had done. And it was scary enough for me not to ever, ever do that again. But I was so unhappy because I didn’t get along with my step-parents. There was no way I could. And it wasn’t them; it was me.

Frankel: Do you have any good memories of these five years? 
DOUGLAS: Oh yes, oh sure. I learned. I learned part of the country. I learned the language. At least I had a future. I developed skills and grew up.

Frankel: Did you ever pursue your artistic sense? 
DOUGLAS: I’m doing some of that now. I did some before and I’m doing some now.

Frankel: So tell us about when you got married. Who was your husband? And that stage in your life.
DOUGLAS: Well I married a fellow that was a nice Jewish boy from the Bronx, who was a radio announcer, calling himself Buffalo Bob, in Greensboro, North Carolina and then moved back to New York, and had gotten a job. I met him because, when I was working as nurse, they gave you a month’s vacation, and during that month I took a job as a camp nurse at a Jewish camp. And there I met a nice young guy and I wanted to go out with him, so he took my phone number. When we got back to the city, after the camping season, the next thing I know his friend is calling me up. I was so terribly disappointed. I didn’t want to go out on a blind date. I had more than enough dates. I wanted to go out with that young fellow. But I went out with this other guy, his friend, just out of spite, and it turned out that this guy that I went out just out of spite with, became my husband.

Frankel: So how soon did you get married and when did you leave him? 
DOUGLAS: We got married in six months.

Frankel: So what year was that? 
DOUGLAS: That was 1958. By then I had been working as a nurse and going to Brooklyn College and we got married, and I moved upstate where he had his job.

Frankel: As a radio announcer? 
DOUGLAS: As a radio announcer. And then we moved back to the city and he went to school and worked in New York radio, and did all kinds of jobs. He did everything from driving a cab to working in laundries, laundromats, and anything to earn a dollar.

Frankel: What was his field, what did he study? 
DOUGLAS:  He was just announcing. He was just entrepreneurial.

Frankel: Because you said he worked and went to school as well. 
DOUGLAS: Yes, just his general degree, he just went to school.

Frankel: So how long did you live in New York? 
DOUGLAS: We lived in New York, for a few years, till my daughter was born and we had a deal. I reminded him that we decided that I would continue working in nursing as long as there were no children, but as soon as the kids were born, I would be home till they went to school. Well the kids were born so I stayed home and he needed to do more than the work that he got in New York to earn a living. He decided he wanted to have his own radio station. And that’s how we came to Oregon.

Frankel: What made him choose this place then? 
DOUGLAS: We couldn’t afford CBS. [laughs] Not that we could afford much. He came to Tillamook the only sunny day of the year that year, and he said, “It’s beautiful out there.”

Frankel: Did you know anyone here?
DOUGLAS: No.

Frankel: Oregon just got picked out of the blue?
DOUGLAS: There was a radio station and we bought it.

Appelbaum:  In Tillamook or Yaquina? 
DOUGLAS: Tillamook.

Frankel: So what year was that when you moved? 
DOUGLAS: 1962.

Frankel: And your daughter had been born when? 
DOUGLAS: In 1961.

Frankel: Did you have more children? 
DOUGLAS: Yes, my son was born in 1962, and we were waiting until he was old enough, so we could get clearance from the pediatrician to fly out here.

Frankel: Tell us about moving here and even in New York after you got married, were you part of the Jewish community? Did you [unclear]. 
DOUGLAS: No. Well as much as I could. It was hard. I even made an attempt at keeping kosher. That’s a lot, you know, when you work 12 hours a day. It was hard.

Frankel: Had your cousin kept a kosher home? 
DOUGLAS: No, no, but they kept kosher style. When we got to Tillamook our first concern was getting settled and getting the kids raised. As soon as they were old enough came time for Sunday School, and we brought them here.

Frankel: You would drive every Sunday? 
DOUGLAS: Every Sunday.

Frankel: To this congregation? 
DOUGLAS: And my son threw up almost whenever we went.

Frankel: Driving… 
DOUGLAS: [laughs] Yes, he got car sick.

Frankel: So his association with Sunday school…..
DOUGLAS: [laughter] No, it was pretty good. After a few years of that he realized that we weren’t going to keep him home.

Frankel: How about your husband’s family? Had he grown up in a traditional home? 
DOUGLAS: His father had come from a very Orthodox family, but no, he wasn’t. Well, I shouldn’t say that, he was bar mitzvahed and everything. He was very easy going; he didn’t push anything.

Frankel: So what was your husband’s name? 
DOUGLAS: Robert.

Frankel: His real name. 
DOUGLAS: Oh his real name, Stanley Weinberg.

Frankel: And was he first generation American or second, do you know? 
DOUGLAS: I think his grandmother came over from Hungary, but his father was born in States.

Frankel: And so how long did you stay in Tillamook? 
DOUGLAS: Till he died. We were there 14 years. He unfortunately died very young. But it was a wonderful life in Tillamook. I laughed a lot. I mean it’s just a great community to raise children. You know when your kid’s running across the street and the neighbor calls you up, “Did you know that your son ran across the street without looking both ways?” And you meet him at the door and tell him what a terrible thing he did running across the street. It’s just wonderful. It was a great community. But when he died– oh we did by the way go to temple. He did get bar mitzvahed

Frankel: Your son? 
DOUGLAS: Yes, here from Neveh Shalom. My daughter chose not to, but they both went through Sunday school and we took them to Israel that year, too. But then my husband died and I decided that I wanted to be closer to the Jewish community, so I moved to Portland and joined the Jewish Community Center. And they joined B’nai B’rith and the synagogue, and I did whatever I could to keep them there.

Frankel: Where are your children today? 
DOUGLAS: My son is in Cleveland, Ohio [laughs]. He likes it there, but they’re working him to death.

Frankel: Where did he go to school? 
DOUGLAS: He went to Berkeley and then he went to UCLA Medical School and then he went to University of Wisconsin for his surgical residency. And now he’s at Case Western for his cardiac fellowship. And, God willing, he’ll be in San Francisco for his practice.

Frankel: Is that where he’s planning to go? 
DOUGLAS: If he can, yes.

Frankel: What about your daughter? 
DOUGLAS: My daughter lives in San Francisco. She went to UC Davis, and has stayed in northern California.

Frankel: What are the names of your children? 
DOUGLAS: My daughter’s name is Lynn, and she’s married now, but no children. And my son’s name is Billy, William. He’s married and I have a one-year-old granddaughter. I should have brought pictures; I didn’t bring pictures of my granddaughter.

Frankel: As your children were growing up, at what point did you tell them about your background and your childhood? 
DOUGLAS: I never really gave them the whole story at one time. It would be bits and pieces over time, as the situation arose. But I remember the one thing that I always had feared while I was raising my children was that they might be orphaned. I was so scared that they would be without parents. That was the one thing that I kept uppermost in my mind. I didn’t want it happen to them.

Frankel: Did they ask many questions, wondering why you had few relatives or they had no grandparents? 
DOUGLAS: No, they knew about where I had come from and what had happened to my family but they also knew that I’m not the usual type of a mother. I was never able to show affection. I loved them so much, but I never knew how to show it and I knew that that was a failing on my part. I kept saying to them, “I apologize for this but I can’t. I feel it but I can’t show it.”

Frankel: Do you care to show some of the photographs you brought with you? Or if Ron has any questions?
Applebaum: It seemed like when you were in Europe and Sylvia was asking you questions, every so often something flashed into your mind and I had a feeling that Sylvia didn’t hit on it. Can you tell us some of the things that you thought about during the interview that Sylvia didn’t bring up? 
DOUGLAS: I must have lost it. I mean you’re talking about a lot of years. Yes I remember what you’re saying, I did have things flash in my mind while we were talking, but I don’t remember what they were now. Short attention span.

Applebaum: The question I asked, when you were involved about the interview is, down the line, let’s say 10 years or 20 years from now, if somebody watched the video, some child, and was looking for words of wisdom from you about your experiences, what would you tell a child who’s watching this video that would direct their life in the future? 
DOUGLAS: You got to make sure that it never happens again. Once was enough. And I am so afraid that Germany is going to rise again. I only hope the rest of the world won’t let it happen.

Frankel: Should we look at some, what did you bring with you? 

[end of formal interview, remainder of recoding is reference to photographs, letters, and documents, which were videotaped, and photocopies of many of which are in Stephanie Douglas’ folder.] 

DOUGLAS: This is a letter that I received. I don’t know from who but it was sent by my mother when she was in a concentration camp. And I know that they had very limited opportunities to write, so it’s very, very precious to me. As far as I know it’s the only one left in her handwriting.

Frankel: What is the content of this letter? [unclear] 
DOUGLAS: It just talks about her affairs and taking care of things, but I know that the letters were read and it was very difficult for her to say anything that was meaningful, because it would not have been allowed to go out. So it just talks about her things.

Frankel: Did she write in some kind of code. Could she have meant anything else? 
DOUGLAS: I wouldn’t know. She might have, but I wouldn’t know that.

Frankel: So who received this letter? 
DOUGLAS: I think my aunt did but I’m not sure. Do you want to see the other side?

Frankel: Now this was sent in December of 1941. When had she been arrested?
DOUGLAS: I guess in 1941, which must have been shortly after. I think she was arrested, I’m not sure but I would guess the summer of 1941.

Frankel: There’s the photo that you told us about. 
DOUGLAS: Yes. This is a letter that my father sent from the camp. And he’s concerned about why he doesn’t hear things. He’s concerned about what’s happening but it’s…

Frankel: This letter was not addressed to your mother. 
DOUGLAS: I don’t know, I don’t think so.

Frankel: It was addressed to  [unclear]
DOUGLAS: Right.

Frankel:  A. Kirsch. 
DOUGLAS: I don’t know who that is. On the front it was Paula and Aron. Does that ring a bell? 
DOUGLAS: Yeah. Paula was my godmother, but maybe there was another one. I don’t know.

Frankel: This letter was sent from the concentration camp in Sachsenhausen? 
DOUGLAS: I guess so. Wherever he was.

Frankel: Now do you know where he was sent from Sachsenhausen? Because you mentioned him dying on the death march, which was clearly from east going back to the west. 
DOUGLAS: I don’t know. I think he was in Auschwitz, I’m not sure, I don’t know.

Frankel: This is a travel document that allowed you to travel from Belgium to Europe. It says that you were stateless at the time, and that you were born in Germany. They mention your origin as being Polish because your parents were both Polish. Again listing all the names, repeating the travel documents with names, the lower filled in part mentions the fact that you were stateless right now. 

Appelbaum:  Just into the places that they went to?

Frankel: Well I think except for the… I think you can just start from the port in Antwerp, there’s nothing else there. On the other side I think where it was issued. 
DOUGLAS: Yeah, the different bureaus that…

Applebaum:  One of you at 12 years old? 
DOUGLAS: Yeah. That’s a picture of my mother. I don’t know who the gentleman is. It could have been her first husband or a brother, I don’t know and my mother again. That’s a picture of my grandmother. 

Applebaum:  Do you remember what her name was? 
DOUGLAS: I think her name was Stephanie. I think I was named after her, Shifra 

Frankel: And her last name? 
DOUGLAS: Daiezer, yeah that’s right, it would have been Daiezer. And that’s my mother and my grandmother together. That’s a picture of my mother and her first husband and my mother’s sister, Helen, and her husband, Ludwig, and my grandmother in the middle. And that’s a picture of my mother. And that’s me. I believe I was one at the time. And that’s a picture of my mother with a friend. I don’t know who that other person is. I think that is my mother with her first husband. And I think this is my aunt Helen with her family. I have no idea who these people are, my mother and friends, and my mother and father. I just don’t know how I accumulated those pictures, but I never wanted to throw them out, even if I didn’t know who they were.