George Bodner

Frankel: I would like to ask you to state your full name, date and place of birth.
BODNER: George Hayden Bodner. Place of birth: Portland, Oregon, April 13th, 1919.

Frankel: Can you talk a little bit about your immediate family?
BODNER: My father was named Jacob Bodner. He was called Jack. My mother was Hannah Bodner. My older brother, Herbert, and my younger brother, who died in 1947 at age 42, was Robert.

Frankel: Do you recall your mother’s maiden name?
BODNER: Her maiden name was Mihlstin. She was actually raised in Oregon. My grandfather, whose name was Adolph Mihlstin (which I think originally was Avraham), was from–at the time they called it Germany. It was Eastern Galicia. My grandmother was from Premise and he was from nearby. The Bodners, my father’s family, were from Pilzno, which is close to Tarnow. My mother’s father and mother came to this country in about 1875. They were quite young. They met in New York. In 1891, my grandfather came out to Oregon. Why, I don’t know.

Frankel: Were there any relatives here?
BODNER: We had nobody. Actually, he went to Tacoma first. They were there for maybe a year, and then he went to Oregon City because evidently there was work there.

Frankel: Work as what?
BODNER: He was a tinsmith and a roofer. There was some talk that when he came out, he was working on the railroad. But I am not sure of that. He went to Oregon City and he went to work for the Pope Company. The company still exists. It is Pope and Talbott.

Frankel: What kind of company is it?
BODNER: I am not absolutely sure. But he wasn’t with them long. He was there long enough to be given property to build his house on in Willamette Falls, which is close to Oregon City. It is said that he built the first house up there in the woods.

Frankel: How long was he in New York before he moved to Oregon?
BODNER: About 14 or 15 years.

Frankel: And where was your mother born?
BODNER She was born in 1891, the year that he came out. She was born in New York. My grandmother already had three boys and a daughter and then had an infant. And she had to come out herself on the train. She described that to me. It was very difficult, very long, and she had to cook all the meals. They had a stove on the train and everybody had to take care of their own meals.

Frankel: And on your father’s side? How did they end up here?
BODNER: My father came to this country in 1905. He had three brothers and one sister who preceded him. There were two brothers in their family who stayed in Poland (which was Austria, they called it then). He married my mother. Evidently there was some connection in Poland between the families. They knew each other there, so when he came to this country, he looked up the Mihlstin family. By that time my grandfather (the pioneer) in 1908 took the family back to New York. He wanted them to marry Jewish mates, which happened. They were living in Brooklyn at that time. My father and mother married in 1910, in Brooklyn. They had a tough beginning because their first child, whose name was Leonard and lived to be 18 months, had pneumonia and died at 18 months. Then my mother lost two more twin boys.

Frankel: At birth?
BODNER: At birth, though, this time she fell down a long, steep flight of stairs as she was ready to go to the hospital. They had a lot of tragedy. He had started a business with his brother, a little vest factory of some type, and that wasn’t going well. So my mother, who had such a happy upbringing in Oregon said, “Why don’t we try again in Oregon?”

Frankel: Did she still have family here in Oregon or had they all moved back to New York?
BODNER: They had all moved except one sister. Before the Mihlstins moved back east, the oldest girl married Sam Pallay. There was a Jewish boy around, although he wasn’t a great pick [laughs]. So she had married him. She lived here with her two boys when they moved out. By that time she was divorced from Pallay. That was all the family there. My father loved it as soon as he arrived here. He went to work for Meier & Frank as their tailor. After a very short while, he wanted to be his own boss. He opened a tailoring store on 23rd and Savier in Northwest.

Frankel: Was that a business and shopping area then?
BODNER: At that time it was a very nice – not first class – but a nice, family neighborhood. On that corner of Savier and NW 23rd, across from Besaws, there was a new hotel called the Hotel Repose. And along 23rd Avenue (I have pictures of all this), there were stores. There was a grocery next door and a hardware on the other. That sort of thing.

Frankel: Was it also residential? Did you live in that neighborhood?
BODNER: We lived in back of the shop. He had a good-sized tailor shop there. And in the back was a roomy apartment. And back of that we had a backyard with chickens. My father bought the shop. He came out in 1914 and he bought the shop about 1915. We were there until 1925.

Frankel: Was your older brother born in New York?
BODNER: Yes, he was. He was six years older. Then the baby, Bob, was six years younger than I, born in 1925.

Frankel: That was your immediate family who lived in that house. Did anyone else join them from New York? Did anyone else come back to Oregon from your mother’s side of the family?
BODNER: Nobody did. The grandparents came to visit in 1923. You probably saw the picture [of them seated on the beach at Seaside].

Frankel: Religiously, were your parents observant? Did they come from an observant family?
BODNER: My father came from a very observant family. But he and his brothers that came to this country (except for one), immediately shaved their beards. They wanted to be Americans. When we were little, I remember that we would say a Hebrew prayer every night before we went to bed. I 

Frankel: That is the morning prayer, when you get up.
BODNER: Is it? Then we did it in the morning. That is very good, because I didn’t remember. But I remember that we said it and I always called it “Modeh Ani” [laughs].

Frankel: What about your mother’s family? Did she grow up in an observant household?
BODNER: She grew up in a mixed household. Her mother was observant and her father wasn’t. When it came to Passover, for the Seders, he [George’s father] conducted the whole thing. It was endless. He was propped up on the pillows; everything according to the book. But everyday she had a little difficulty keeping kosher, although she tried.

Frankel: What was it like keeping kosher in Portland?
BODNER: Well, my mother did not. It was difficult in those days. When my grandparents lived in Oregon City and Willamette Falls she did her best, I understand. There was somebody in Portland who did the kosher meat. A slaughterer.

Frankel: A shochet.
BODNER: Yes. So they did the best they could. But it was difficult at that time to really observe, to be Orthodox at all.

Frankel: Now, in the neighborhood where you lived, were there other Jews living there?
BODNER: There weren’t too many. That is interesting, because my parents did not settle in South Portland. They were up there [Northwest]. For a Jewish family in Portland at that time, they had loads of Gentile friends. They had Jewish friends also, but I think that it was unusual that they had so many good, Gentile friends.

Frankel: Would you actually visit each other in each other’s homes?
BODNER: Oh, yes. We would visit each other. In the summer we went to Seaside and we were with these Gentile friends. I have a lot of pictures of that. In Portland, we have many pictures too, of my family picnicking on Sauvie Island. Wilhoir Springs was a favorite spot in those days.

Frankel: Can you talk a little bit about your parents’ education?
BODNER: My mother went to Willamette Falls School. She went to grammar school and high school. I don’t know whether she finished the high school, because my grandfather had the thriving business in Oregon City and wanted her to be his bookkeeper. He sent her to Behnke-Walker Business School. It is still there. That was in Oregon City. Last time I drove through Oregon City on the Main Street, I saw “Behnke-Walker” on one of those old structures and I think his shop was next door or in the same area. So she learned how to be a bookkeeper and she was his bookkeeper before she was married, even back in Brooklyn before she was married, [where] he had another business. My father was educated in whatever schools they had over there [in Europe]. Of course, they had plenty of cheders and Talmud Torah. He read a great deal. He was really quite educated as far as that goes.

Frankel: What languages were spoken at home?
BODNER: At home, only English. The only time I ever heard Yiddish was if my father was talking to his brothers. Otherwise I never heard it. And Adolph, my grandpa, only spoke English. Grandma was the only one that had an accent. And her native language was German. So I used to speak with her. I took a lot of German in high school and continued in college. I spoke to her in German, and I got to be pretty good. She loved that; she preferred to do that. She wrote me a lot of letters, which I have preserved, when I moved out here during my college years. I came across one the other day. It was a mixture of German and English. But to answer your question, on both sides of the family everyone spoke English.

Frankel: What are your earliest memories of Portland, before you moved to New York?
BODNER: Well, I remember . . . . As I said, I do remember doing the morning prayer. I remember . . .

Frankel: Did you go to Nursery School or Preschool?
BODNER: At age five. I remember things before age five, though. At age five, the Chapman School was very new and I attended there for a year. I remember being practically dragged there by my mother. I didn’t want to go. But it turned out okay. I remember that we had a car and that my mother drove.

Frankel: Was that common for women to drive then?
BODNER: It really wasn’t. She learned when she was just a kid growing up in Oregon City. They had a horse and buggy and then Grandpa bought (it was too early for the Model T, but something like that), which he never drove. One of her brothers drove it and she said that she wanted to drive. And he said, “Okay, go ahead.” He taught her one or two things and at the top of a hill, he let her go. From that time, she drove [laughs]. Of course, those were different times. She was a good driver. She did most of the driving. My father drove, too, but she drove more. When the Columbia Gorge opened up, we drove there. We used to drive out to Garden Home quite a bit because that is where the Pallays lived. Morris Pallay, the grandparents.

Frankel: What was that neighborhood like then?
BODNER: It was way out in the country. The Pallays had a farm. Even though my mother’s sister was divorced from their son, they didn’t have too much use for their son, but they loved their two grandchildren. In fact, they practically raised them, because my aunt Yetta was very busy with her second husband (who was not Jewish), George Sullivan. He worked for Bissinger Company in Portland. I think it was a fur outfit. He was a great fisherman and sportsman.

Frankel: Do you remember growing up (before you moved to New York) Friday nights, having Shabbat dinners? Your father attending services anywhere?
BODNER: We belonged to Ahavai Sholom. We went to services but not consistently.

Frankel: Who was the rabbi there the time?
BODNER: I don’t recall. I remember there was some controversy about the rabbi, but I don’t remember his name, because he was seen in another city (maybe New York, I don’t know) sitting and eating ham [laughs]. I don’t recall. But I do recall great excitement one night when the family said, “Oh, the Temple is burning.” I know that Beth Israel had a huge fire, but this could have been one of the other synagogues too. I don’t know. But I remember that we all piled into the car and went down and saw this huge fire. My parents were upset. What else can I remember? I remember things at the beach very well.

Frankel: Would people rent cottages at the beach?
BODNER: Yes, we rented the same cottages on 12th Street every time we went down. They happened to be called the Christensen Cottages, and we were there because [they were] some of my parents’ very good friends. Emily was their last name. And Mrs. Emily’s father was Mr. Christensen. He owned these very nice little cottages where we rented. You have probably heard the story about how the fathers would drive the families down, and then they would come down on the weekend (which was really just Saturday overnight) on the “Daddy Train.” I remember that so well. The huge excitement of going to meet him at the train station.

Frankel: South Portland was always considered the poorer segment of the Jewish population. Would you consider yourself, then, middle class?
BODNER: At that time, when my dad went out, we were in the poorer class. We didn’t really have anything. But things went well with his business. So by those standards we were middle class, I would say.

Frankel: So did you have any connections with the families living in South Portland?
BODNER: My parents did. I wish I could remember some of their names. But they definitely had some good Jewish friends, too. Maybe they were through Ahavai Sholom, I don’t know.

Frankel: Do you remember the neighborhood?
BODNER: South Portland? During that period, I guess we didn’t go there that much. I remember when I moved back in 1936 (I was at the U of O 1936-40). I remember it from then on.

Frankel: The reason that I am asking is that the Jews who were living in South Portland had very little contact with the German Jews who were also considered upper and middle class. Did your family have contact with the German Jews who lived in the West Hills?
BODNER: Some of them, yes.

Frankel: Also, even though you only spent one year at Chapman, do you remember having other Jewish friends in your class?
BODNER: That I don’t remember. There were not too many. Maybe Chapman School, being brand new and a lovely school, had some of the Germans, but I don’t recall. I know that the German Jews from the hills, and from downtown even, all (well, many of them) patronized my father. I don’t remember close relationships at that time with them, but cordial.

Frankel: Let’s talk about when you came back in 1936. You were 17. You had graduated from high school in New York.
BODNER: I knew I didn’t want to live in New York. It was the height of the Depression. Do you know New York at all?

Frankel: I lived in New York in the 1970s.
BODNER: Oh, by that time it was better. In the 1930s it was a desperate place. On every street corner you would see men with apple carts, selling apples or chestnuts, begging; it was terrible. I didn’t care for that. If I was going to go to college in New York, it would have to be City College, and there was so much ferment going on there.

Frankel: In terms of what?
BODNER: Oh, political, Communist accusations, all that stuff. New York just seemed awful to me at that time. And we had a lot of Jewish friends and everything. But we went from affluence to things being pretty tight because my dad lost money. I just knew there was a better way of life. Portland seemed, in my memory, so great.

Frankel: Had you been back to Portland during those 11 years in New York?
BODNER: No, I hadn’t. And then, too, in New York … I never experienced an antisemitic incident in New York, except I used to love to walk and I had a friend with whom I used to walk a great deal in Brooklyn. About a mile and half from our neighborhood was an enclave. I can’t think of its name. I think it was on Myrtle Avenue. There was a Deutscher Verein in the 1930s. Sometimes our walks would take us through that area and at that time, the Hitler Youth, from the Deutscher Verein were marching in that neighborhood.

Frankel: Were they uniformed? With a swastika on their armband?
BODNER: Mmhmm. This was between 1932 and 36. It never bothered us. In fact, we didn’t do it very often, because we took the hint. But it was the beginning of the Hitler Youth. Everything else that was going on, I didn’t like. If we had been wealthy enough to live on the Upper East Side, it would have been different.

Frankel: So you made the trip back on your own?
BODNER: Yes.

Frankel: Was anyone left? Was your aunt still here?
BODNER: My aunt was here, and her two sons. So I had the aunt and two cousins, Leo and Clarence Pallay, and their wives. I didn’t really come for family; I just came to seek a better way of life. I said to my parents and to my family back there, “You know, I am not going to be happy going to school in New York, and I’d really like to go back to Portland.” They thought it over and said, “Well, we are going to do it.” I went to a great high school called Boys High. It was kind of a special school in those days. It no longer exists. I did very well there. I had gone to five different grammar schools because of moving around and I was never too great. I had no continuity. But when I went to Boys High, I got to go straight through and I would bring home these nice reports every term. My parents were quite proud of that, so they let me go. So I came out myself. Then I did run into antisemitic incidents here. Almost immediately when I arrived I stayed with my aunt in the Hollywood District. I started to have calls from fraternity members. They were rushing. 

Frankel: From the U of O?
BODNER: Yes, from down in Eugene. You see they knew that I was moving out and had been accepted at the U of O.

Frankel: So you had applied to the U of O from New York?
BODNER: Yes. I knew I was going there before I came out. I was told that if I lived in Oregon for three months and had an address, I could establish residency. So I arrived in June. Otherwise I probably couldn’t have gone. I was getting these calls from fraternity members. One fraternity in particular was very persistent. I didn’t know anything about fraternities. Nothing. They were inviting me to parties and all sorts of nice things. I thought, “Gee, students at Oregon are really nice.” I guess I asked my aunt, and she didn’t know too much about the system, so I was really courted. One thing after another. It was fun; I was meeting guys. And I was really quite young. I had turned 17 in April and here I was. I had been skipped a few times which made me rather young. Then, all of a sudden, after almost deciding that I was going to move in with this group, the word “Jewish” slipped out. I don’t remember how it happened, whether somebody mentioned Jews or whether I had. But all of a sudden these friends disappeared. Nothing! [laughs] So, that was quite a blow.

Frankel: How did you respond to that?
BODNER: Well, then I understood. I don’t recall if they told me outright that they would not accept Jewish students or probably one of my cousins, Clarence, who had been through the University of Oregon. I was probably talking to him and he explained it to me. So that was one thing. Then when I went down to Eugene, the first thing you have to do when you check in is see your advisor.

Frankel: Did you live in the dorms?
BODNER: Yes, I lived in the dorms. But there was a Jewish fraternity there, Sigmas, SAMs. They hadn’t gotten word of me, which was just as well, I think, because a year in the dorm was fine. I went to see this Dr. Yokum. The first thing he did when I sat down was say, “Hmmphf! Jewish! I suppose you are going to miss all of the Jewish Holidays.” I said, “Well, I hadn’t thought about that.” That was kind of a slap. He did not spend any time with me. He couldn’t get away with that today.

Frankel: What was Eugene like?
BODNER: Eugene was lovely. It was just a very small town. The university had two or three thousand and it was just the ideal college campus. I really loved it there.

Frankel: Were you aware of many other Jewish students or did it not concern you?
BODNER: My roommate was Jewish – Bob Herzog. His father was an architect in Portland. He is the one that later went into selling cars. His father was one of the architects that worked on Temple [Beth Israel]. My cousin Besse Pallay (married to Clarence) had looked around for a roommate for me, because she knew that I would be in the dorm. She introduced me to Bob. So we were roommates at least for the first half of the year. He was just fine, but I was very neat, and he was a slob. He was not a serious student and I was, so after six months I wrote my folks and said, “Can I get a room by myself?”

Frankel: Off campus?
BODNER: No, right in the same dorm. Then, as the year went on, the Sammys, the Jewish fraternity, became aware that here were two Jewish boys and they came and paid attention to us. The second year we both got into the fraternity.

Frankel: Were you aware of a Jewish community in Eugene? Did families invite you to their homes?
BODNER: Yes, some did. The Goldschmidts.

Frankel: Was he a faculty member?
BODNER: No, Lester Goldschmidt, that is Neil’s father, worked at that time for Rubenstein Furniture. Harry Rubenstein was in the fraternity, and he would take me home for Shabbat dinner, etc. So I got to know them well. Then I had all of these fraternity brothers. Most of them were from Portland, although there was Frager from Albany. He would take me home, too. Everybody took me home. In Portland, Jim Durkheimer took me home very often.

Frankel: Did you have to work in addition to studying?
BODNER: I did some work. I worked on campus for the school, raking leaves and that sort of thing. I worked for Joe Weinstein. He had the Army/Navy store in Eugene and was really good to the Jewish boys. He gave anybody a job that wanted one. I worked on Saturdays for 35 [cents] an hour, but that was okay in those days. What else did I do? Christmas vacation, Abe Weiner was in the fraternity. They had Weiner’s clothing in downtown. I worked there for Christmas vacation. Whatever I could pick up.

Frankel: What did you major in?
BODNER: I majored in pre-med. I had a minor in psychology and in German.

Frankel: On campus and school did you encounter, besides the fraternity, any other antisemitic incidents?
BODNER: I became the president of the fraternity in my last year, so I was automatically in the Inter-Fraternity Council. I have a picture of that. That was a most uncomfortable group to be with. They all were the heads of fraternities that had no Jews in them – did not allow Jews in them at that time. In subsequent years they all opened up. But this was a different time; this was the ‘30s. I don’t recall any outward antisemitic remarks, but it was clear that you were not really included. Your advice wasn’t asked when deciding anything about the fraternities.

Frankel: Among the Sammy boys was there ever any discussion about trying to change that? Or did you just play along?
BODNER: We played along. It was in the fraternity’s interest. We didn’t have huge numbers. It was in our own interest to keep our members. I neglected to mention that my roommate and very good friend at the fraternity was Gilbert Schnitzer. Gilbert was the one who worked on me to get me to join the fraternity in my second year. We became very good friends and I was invited to the Schnitzer home all of the time. Everybody took me in. I had a happy time there.

Frankel: Were there sororities there as well?
BODNER: Oh, yes, there were sororities. They were much better. We didn’t have too much going on between our fraternity and other fraternities. There were a few exceptions, what we called ATO. They were much more liberal and we did have some joint event with them

Frankel: What kind of activities did the Sammys organize?
BODNER: This may not answer your question, but I will say that the Sammys would maintain the highest grade point averages. We had the most appointees by the school to important positions, like chairman of Homecoming or Junior Weekend, etc. So we had a very busy group. As I said, they were interested in maintaining high grades. We had this stellar standing, which did not help us get along with the other fraternities [laughing]. We were always on top.

Frankel: Now, 1936 to 1940 in Europe. The war would start in 1939. Were you involved politically? Were you aware of what was going on?
BODNER: I was not really aware. I started to become aware the same day I was elected president of the Sammy house. I was also elected president of Delta Phi Alpha, the German honorary. One of our activities was to import German movies and show them at the theater. One month we took them over to Corvallis. At that time I started to become aware. I started asking myself, “Now what am I doing this for?” It came about finally, that when I graduated I was offered a fellowship in German to stay on at the university. I wouldn’t consider it. I felt awfully betrayed by the whole thing.

Frankel: Do you recall some of the German movies that you showed?
BODNER: The Gypsy Baron

Frankel: Any of the Leni Riefenstahl movies?
BODNER: I don’t recall any. We showed The Gypsy Baron. I sort of erased a lot of that from my mind. I even tried to forget my German, which wasn’t smart. And when I was taking Hebrew . . .

Frankel: Where did you take Hebrew?
BODNER: Well, any place I could learn it. Conversational Hebrew. I think you were giving it.

Frankel: Oh, that was much later, then.
BODNER: Yes, because that was in the 1970s. I went to Israel and met my survivor cousins and those classes helped me do that. Even so, German kept popping into my Hebrew.

Frankel: What about Zionism? In the fraternity, was Palestine or Israel a topic of conversation or awareness?
BODNER: Not in the 30s. I think if I had gone to school in New York it would have been different. We had an anti-Zionist group of German Jews in the 30s or 40s.

Frankel: At the university?
BODNER: In Portland.

Frankel: Do you recall the name? Was it an official group?
BODNER: Yes, they called themselves… what was it? Boy, you really forget things! A lot of our first families, like the Durkheimers and the Rosenthals, etc., belonged to this group of anti-Zionists. Stuart Durkheimer.

Frankel: Now, 1939, the war broke out on September 1st. Do you have any memories of that on campus?
BODNER: I wasn’t there, but certainly we were all aware of it. I was planning on going to medical school or dental school and, well, I guess it was about a year or so before we got around to… you know, we didn’t go to war.

Frankel: Right. Now, during the years that you were at the U of O, would you correspond with your parents?
BODNER: Only correspond. I don’t think we ever talked on the phone.

Frankel: Was it your father, you said, who still had relatives left behind in Europe? Were there concerns? Did you keep in touch with relatives or find out what was going on there?
BODNER: Unfortunately, at that time, in 1939, is when my parents moved back to Portland. My father lived for a year after that. I graduated. I didn’t know much about the family there. During the summer of 1940, my father was bed-ridden. He died in September. He didn’t talk much about it, but he would listen to that little radio constantly. He would worry about it, but he didn’t want his worries to add to ours. We all had enough to worry about. But I was aware. And his doctor, Morton Goodman (who happened to be Harriet’s uncle), would come up to see him all the time. He couldn’t go out. As soon as Mort would walk into the bedroom, he would flip it off.

Frankel: Where did your parents live when they moved back to Portland?
BODNER: We lived on 21st and Flanders. First of all we lived on 21st, down a few blocks, but then we took a large walk-up apartment in a house on 21st and Flanders. We refurnished. We had three bedrooms and that is where they lived.

Frankel: Before you graduated from the U of O, did you apply already to medical school?
BODNER: Yes. I applied to Oregon and I applied to Northwestern in Chicago. As the summer went by, I never heard from Oregon. If I queried, I got strange answers.

Frankel: But from Northwestern you heard?
BODNER: I was accepted. I knew my father was dying.

Frankel: What was he suffering from?
BODNER: He had coronary artery disease. Today, a heart operation could have saved him, but they couldn’t do anything in 1940. He was only 57. So I knew that going to Northwestern was out of the question. My father had no insurance. There was no Medicare. As it happened, I was just dropped by Oregon without the courtesy . . . Well, they had quotas in those days, you know.

Frankel: Were you aware of them?
BODNER: Oh yes. I was very aware. My father died at the end of September, on the 22nd. And Mort Goodman, who was a wonderful doctor and also a good friend by that time (it turned out I would marry his niece but he didn’t know it then), was up to decide what was happening. And we had this conversation of Mort, my mother, and myself. I said, “Well, there is only one thing for me to do and that is to go out and get a job and not go on [with my education].” My mother said, “Absolutely not. That is not acceptable.” Mort said, “I will tell you what I would suggest: Go to the dental school.”

Frankel: There was no quota there?
BODNER: No, none at all. He said, “The first year is really very similar to the first year of medical school. And if you do that, after a year, I will see that you get into Oregon.” I said, “Okay.” I went over and it was late and the term had begun already. I went in and after about three months I saw Mort and I said, “You know, you can forget your offer because I really love this work. It is fascinating, and I am going to continue.”

Frankel: You said during the summer your father was already bed-ridden. How did your family survive financially?
BODNER: That is a good question. He had opened this tailor shop on the corner of 23rd and Thurman when he came back. What happened was I graduated from Oregon and came back to Portland. My dad was in the shop. Mort came in (he was wonderful) and checked my dad there. He said, “I want you to go home and get in bed.” I couldn’t believe my ears. I didn’t realize how serious it was. So I got Mort aside and I said, “What would happen if he didn’t go home and he just stayed here?” He said, “He’ll be dead in a week.” So Dad went home and I was elected to run that shop and that is what I did.

Frankel: But you had people working in the shop, too.
BODNER: I actually arranged to send everything out. I would take the orders and send them out and get them back. It was very difficult and very boring.

Frankel: Did your mother work in the business as well?
BODNER: She had never worked in the business, but literally the day after my father died, she went down and ran that business herself. She did it the same way. She got a presser in. She did it because she really had to. The way it worked out, she did very well with it, because the war came on and all the shipyard workers appeared and she was very busy.

Frankel: Where was your older brother?
BODNER: Older brother was working wherever he could.

Frankel: Had he also moved back to Portland?
BODNER: Oh, yes. He didn’t want to, but he agreed to come. He had many friends, being six years older. He always worked very hard at all sorts of things.

Frankel: So, what was the climate in dental school in terms of, again, political involvement, Jewish…?
BODNER: Well, we had some faculty that didn’t care for Jewish boys.

Frankel: How did that manifest itself?
BODNER: There was one in particular who was especially bad. He would make remarks like, “The Jewish boys just don’t have it in their hands.” He would come right out and talk like that.

Frankel: What did he mean by that?
BODNER: That they would not be good dentists. And we had some very good ones.

Frankel: No one responded?
BODNER: No. So we ran into some of that there, too. But in general it wasn’t too bad. I had never run into that sort of thing living in New York, but then, I was with Jews there.

Frankel: Were there many Jewish students in dental school? 
BODNER: Not too many, but in my class we did have five, which was unusual.

Frankel: Did you live at home while you were in school?
BODNER: Oh, yes.

Frankel: Now, the war, Pearl Harbor and all, how did things change?
BODNER: Well, I joined the Naval Reserve. I think it was in my second year, in 1941. It meant that they would let me finish school, and I didn’t have any financial aid. There were other plans, which came up shortly after, where they would pay your way through school. I didn’t have that, but I got to stay. They gave me the rank of Ensign. That is an officer; the lowest officer class. They would not call me until I was through… 

Frankel: Before we go on, I just want to backtrack a little bit. When you graduated from the U of O, you came back to Portland, and you hadn’t been there in Portland then for some 15 years, because from New York you basically went to Eugene. How had Portland changed over the years? Were there new institutions?
BODNER: Let me see. Well Yaw’s was still there. That was our favorite hamburger spot.

Frankel: Do you recall refugees from Germany coming?
BODNER: Yes, I had forgotten about that aspect. My cousin Leo Pallay owned Jefferson Theater and things like that.

Frankel: What was the Jefferson Theater?
BODNER: Jefferson Theater was an old-time theater for many years. It was on Jefferson Street. Now it has become a porno theater, I believe. It is quite changed. In those days it was a family thing. And Leo played the organ along with the silent movies. But Leo’s whole apartment block was built by his grandfather and owned by that family. He went out of his way to sign for quite a number of families to come over to Portland. He didn’t know them or anything, but he had a very good heart. When I came back after I graduated, he introduced me to all of these German refugees that he had brought over. They loved Leo and his wife. The problem was with the language. Leo said, “You have been studying all this German? Why don’t you give them some English lessons?” So that is another thing I was doing regularly. I wish I remember all their names, but I don’t. There was a Kubin, a doctor.

Frankel: Did the Neighborhood House not provide English lessons any longer?
BODNER: They might have. I don’t know. Leo asked me to and I did it. It was a good experience and it helped them along. I haven’t thought of that for a while.

Frankel: What about synagogues? Did you join or belong or attend?
BODNER: No, I really didn’t. It wasn’t until I was married that we did that.

Frankel: What about your mother?
BODNER: She belonged to Ahavai Sholom. I didn’t have a membership, but if we went, we went to Ahavai Sholom. My whole family now are buried in Ahavai Sholom cemetery.

Frankel: Who would you say were the leaders of the Jewish community of Portland at that time?
BODNER: I don’t think I was that aware, really. In the Jewish community, the one that I used to hear about all the time was Rabbi Berkowitz from the Reform. I did go the Reform, because it seemed that most of the kids from school with whom friendships continued in Portland were at Temple. I was comfortable in Ahavai Sholom because I had been raised Conservative. I did attend certain things at the Temple. They had a club (I think it was kind of a snobby club) called the Octagonal Club. And they used to include me in things. I never felt really at home with them, though.

Frankel: With whom did you socialize mostly in terms of Jewish/non-Jewish?
BODNER: Oh, Jewish.

Frankel: Did you know any Japanese families during that time? Do you have recollections of the internment?
BODNER: I knew about the internment, but I didn’t know the families. I knew one Japanese student at the university named Hiroshi Sanida. I never knew about his family.

Frankel: Did he have to interrupt his studies?
BODNER: Perhaps. I lived in the same dorm with him in the first year. I think by the third year he was gone. Whether he just quit or… 

Frankel: Are we talking now about dental school?
BODNER: No, this was at the U of O. I didn’t follow through on him because I didn’t know his family. But that goes back a ways, doesn’t it? I have to get in the right time span. In the Navy, moving ahead a few years, when I was stationed in Pearl Harbor, I became very well acquainted with a lovely Japanese nurse whose family was in internment. I heard a lot about that. She was just lovely. She ended up committing suicide over there.

Frankel: Do you recall an outcry in the community about the Japanese being sent away?
BODNER: I do recall that there was some outcry. I heard arguments on both sides. It was a terribly unnecessary thing.

Frankel: What about the Germans? I remember some people in Seattle saying that there was a curfew for Germans (whether they were non-Jewish or Jewish) because they were considered enemy aliens.
BODNER: I don’t recall that. I think I recall hearing about things like that in World War I. In fact, one of my uncles, in 1917, changed his name. His name was Schmidt and he was married to my father’s youngest sister in New York. He changed his name to Smith because of that.

Frankel: At what point to you recall becoming aware of what was happening to the Jews in Europe?
BODNER: [after a moment of consideration] I suppose it was after news came out about the atrocities that were going on. We knew that things were going on, but you couldn’t imagine what was really happening.

Frankel: After your father died, did your mother continue to keep in correspondence with his family in Europe?
BODNER: Not immediately. I had one first cousin, the son of my father’s oldest brother in New York (he was a dentist, too; Hyman Bodner). He was the one in the whole family who was in contact – who knew anything. He wrote a letter a bit later, which I have someplace, informing us that we had family there. I wasn’t even aware that we had that much family. This was after most of them had been killed off except for these five survivors who got through it. They were in Israel. He wrote, “I am really writing this for George to know.” He wanted me to carry on. We had many, many cousins. He had been over to Israel and he described it. He sent me a picture. There were all these very young ones. He wanted me to know that these were our cousins. He gave me their names, ages, and who they were. They had all been interned in Cyprus before they got into Israel. He let me know. Prior to that, from time to time, we would hear something. Hyman would write, “I am taking up a collection. Send what you can.” So we would always send money to Hyman and he would take care of it. Then in about 1970, did you want to hear about that? The Tanzers, Shirley and Herschel, used to take the governors over. They invited us to go with Governor Straub and Neil Goldschmidt to Israel. They were going to plant forests; Gussie [Reinhardt] went also. That was when I really made contact. I wrote ahead and met them all. I started a very close relationship with them.

Frankel: Let’s go back to dental school now. How long did it last?
BODNER: Usually it takes four years, but because of the war we went right through [the summers] and finished in three and half years.

Frankel: What did it mean to be in the Naval Reserve after you graduated?
BODNER: After I graduated, it meant that they could call me at any day. That was the agreement. For some strange reason they didn’t call me for six months. I had been invited by Dr. Saul Robinson, a very, very fine dentist, to be an associate in his office. So I actually went in and worked with him for six months.

Frankel: Was he Jewish?
BODNER: Oh, yes. And I had married Harriet.

Frankel: Oh, you were married already? When did that happen?
BODNER: I met Harriet in June of 1940. I was invited to a party at the Light house – that is Dorothy Packouz Light, and Lois, her sister. They had a dancing party. That is what we did in those days. I went to the party. I didn’t feel like going, almost didn’t go, because my dad was so sick. And I had that damned shop to look after. I went to the party. I guess I walked in a little late and they had the rug rolled up. And sitting on the rug was this cute girl. Everybody was dancing and she was sitting alone. I went over and asked her to dance. Well, she wasn’t supposed to dance. The reason she was sitting was because her doctor, Mort Goodman, had told her since she was just recuperating from mononucleosis, she could go to the party but not dance. So I sat and talked to her all evening. Actually, I knew she existed because when Gilbert Schnitzer took me home all those times, his sister Edith (who later married Mort Goodman) used to say to me, “You know, there is a cute girl who I think you would really like. Ask her out for a date.” I didn’t want to be fixed up so I said, “Oh, I’ll probably meet her someday.” So there she was. We hit it off and I said, “How about another date this weekend?” And she said, “Fine, but you will have to come down to Seaside because I am going down with my cousins.” So I went down. You may have seen the pictures on the wall [at the Oregon Jewish Museum, for the An Ocean View exhibit]. She was leaving to go to Yale in a month so I had to work fast there.

Frankel: So how soon after that did you get married?
BODNER: Oh, I told her that I couldn’t get married until I graduated from dental school and I was just starting. I said, “I cannot get married until I can afford it. I haven’t got any money. I have to graduate and I have to take the state boards.” So we married three years later, the day after I took the state boards [laughs], which were a four-day ordeal. We were married in Mort Goodman’s home.

Frankel: And then where did you live?
BODNER: For six months we moved in with my mother who was still in the flat on 21st and Flanders. Then we went to Bremerton Navy Yard. That was my first place. We met some lovely Jewish people there who worked for Jewish Services. Then we went from there to California (again we met some nice Jewish people).

Frankel: Did you work as a dentist for the Navy?
BODNER: Yes, I was a dentist.

Frankel: Did you wear a uniform?
BODNER: Oh, absolutely. Then our first-born was born in San Mateo, California. And three months after Jack was born (he is 61 now), we had this apartment and this old, old car [can’t quite hear the description of the car, but it was old and not in good shape]. Then I went to the base one morning and was handed orders to go to China, leaving immediately.

Frankel: Why China?
BODNER: Because I was in a group that was supposed to invade the coast of China and attack the Japanese. This was 1945. I had to leave in three days. What happened was, shortly after that, V-J day occurred so our ship was diverted to Pearl Harbor and dumped us off there. They didn’t know what to do with us. I was assigned to the Pearl Harbor Naval Base dental clinic and stayed there practicing for a while. Harriet had to get herself and the baby, the furniture, and get rid of that old car and get back to Portland.

Frankel: Did she move in with your mother again?
BODNER: By that time my brother Herb, who was working at shipyard, and his wife were with her. She moved in with her aunt Ophelia Foster for a while, and then she rented a house on the east side. And where was I? Oh, yes, I was at Pearl Harbor, where again I had a little antisemitic incident. I was assigned to the bachelor officer quarters. They were very nice quarters. By that time I was a Lieutenant Junior Grade and later they promoted me to Senior Grade, which is like a Captain in the Army. My roommate was a Lieutenant Commander. He had no idea I was Jewish. I didn’t tell him because I wasn’t the combative type, especially with a Lieutenant Commander. He was fond of calling Roosevelt, “Rosenfeld.” I heard remarks like that all the time. I didn’t answer him but he didn’t care. I don’t think he knew I was Jewish.

Frankel: How long were you in Pearl Harbor?
BODNER: I was there about five or six months.

Frankel: And then they sent you back home?
BODNER: No, unfortunately they did not. I was then, on one day’s notice, shipped off to China.

Frankel: Had the war not ended?
BODNER: Things were still going on. But I went for a different purpose. Do you want to hear why I was sent off in just one day? 

Frankel: Yes.
BODNER: I’ll tell you. When I checked into the Navy Base at Pearl Harbor, the first thing you do when you check into a base is visit the Commanding Officer. A lot of the Commanding Officers were old-time, regular Navy types. Many of them were not very well educated and some were stupid. I called on this Commander. I had seen my dental office. It was very nice. We had very nice offices, comparatively speaking. And I said, “You know, my equipment is just fine, but I am missing one thing (I had been tipped off that they did not use Novocain).” I acted very innocent and said, “I see that there is no anesthetic.” He got very angry and started banging the table. He said, “We don’t use Novocain here and if I ever catch you using it, you are in trouble.” You see, when he went to dental school (which was a century before) it was before they had anesthesia. He said, “We will use it in surgery but no place else.” I said, “Okay.” And then I went back and talked to my corpsman, who was a very bright guy, and I said, “I really can’t operate without Novocain.” He said, “Well, I know where you can get all you want. There is no shortage.” So I said, “Get it.” I used it and it was very popular [laughs]. And then after getting away with that for several months, one day I was standing there doing a mandibular block and I saw somebody standing at the door, and there he was. I think it was before the day was over, or maybe it was the next day, I had orders to go to China. Actually, it was a great thing for me. I had wonderful experiences, which I wouldn’t have had.

Frankel: So you didn’t even have the chance to go back and see the family? Harriet and your son?
BODNER: Oh, no. I sent a telegram reading, “Leaving for China tomorrow.” She was thinking in terms of, “He’ll be home.”

Frankel: How long were you in China?
BODNER: Well, it took quite a while to get there. They flew me and we had to stop at these various islands: Kwajalein and Guam. I think I spent a week or two on Guam. I had to hop here and hop here and then wait for transportation. Guam, Okinawa, and there were others. I finally got to China. I was in Shanghai. I was not assigned to Shanghai, so I was just waiting for transportation for about two weeks in Shanghai. Then I had a Jewish experience: in order to buy a towel and some cigarettes (everybody smoked in those days), there was an Army PX, a huge shop. I went there and I walked in and everybody working there were refugees from Germany.

BODNER: And so I got to talk to many of these lovely people who were there working and so anxious to come to the United States or even South America. That was completely unexpected. I had no idea. I was staying at something they called the “American School” that put up travelers in Shanghai, and I found out later that I had been staying right across the street from where Susie Gerson and Teddy Gerson lived. China was a terrible place at that time. Poverty was terrible. They would pick up the starving bodies every morning that were lying in the streets. Terrible. While I was stationed at Tzing Tao, which was 300 miles north of Shanghai.

Frankel: Why were the US Army there?
BODNER: They were distributed around. I was attached to a Seabee Base under the Marines. Everything was under the Marines at that time. It was a Construction Battalion and they had projects that they had to do. The Japanese had already been cleaned out. I stayed on the base in a house with three officers: the Dental officer, a Medical officer, and the Catholic Chaplain. We stayed together. As soon as I arrived there, my fellow officer said, “First of all, you will have to get a house boy.” And I said, “Well, I don’t believe in that sort of thing, I can take care of myself.” They said, no, they each had a houseboy. They said, “Number one, you lose face without one and number two, these houseboys are so poor that they depend on the job.” So I said, “Okay.” I hired a houseboy who happened to be the best one there. He was a deaf mute, very smart. [We communicated] by hand movements, and he knew what I meant.

Frankel: How long were you there?
BODNER: I got there when it was very cold. Maybe I was there for five months. Then I went to the Marine Captain. I had enough points to get out. I told him, “You know, I have enough points and I have a young child at home and I’m terribly anxious to get home.” He said, “You know you don’t go anyplace until we get a replacement for you. That was one of the rules. When we get a replacement, you will go.” So I sweated it out. Finally a replacement came and I knew how hard it was to get one there for some reason or other. I was the only dentist for miles around.

Frankel: So did you travel?
BODNER: No. I had another crazy commander at this base. He was even worse. I called on him. He lived in a house on the base. He was shacked up with a white Russian gal. He was rarely ever seen. That was where he stayed. So I went to see him. He said to me (it seems unreal now), “You are a professional man. I don’t want my professional men working after noon.” I said, “You know, Captain, I have nothing to do. I would be glad to work a full day. Furthermore, around the sick bay, where the officers have their offices, there are all these cute little Chinese kids who have never seen a dentist in their lives. I would be glad to take care of them.” He said, “Absolutely not. It is against the regulations to take care of them. I don’t want you working. Here are the keys to your jeep. Don’t drive outside of the town boundaries because you will get shot.” That was where the Chinese Communists were surrounding. Terrible waste of manpower there.

Frankel: So, when did you get back to the States?
BODNER: I think I got back in May of 1946.

Frankel: And you resumed your practice with your associate?
BODNER: Yes, I went right back in with Dr. Robinson.

Frankel: And you were done with your reserve obligation?
BODNER: Well, I couldn’t give it up altogether. But I had no demands on me for a little while until I finally was able to get untangled from them.

Frankel: And now that you had a family, did you become more involved with the Jewish community?
BODNER: Oh, absolutely. We joined Temple. We had Sunday school. I didn’t mention my cheder experience in New York. I always went to cheder, as did my brothers. But now we were really joining the Jewish community. I had hardly any relatives, and knowing Harriet, I was related to everybody.

Frankel: Was Harriet’s family Reform? Is that why you joined Temple?
BODNER: No, her family were, well I guess her modern family were Reform. But my family was strictly Conservative, and I had wanted to join Ahavai Sholom. Harriet at that point really wanted Temple, so I thought that was okay.

Frankel: So did you celebrate the holidays at home?
BODNER: Oh, yes. We celebrated all the holidays. We weren’t as good with Shabbat as we could have been. Our friends were mostly Jewish.

Frankel: Did the JCC ever play an important role?
BODNER: Not in my life. I had two memberships there for years, which we didn’t use. The children went to B.B. Camp.

Frankel: What about other organizations? Was Federation already organized by that time?
BODNER: Oh yes, I was out soliciting. By the 1950s, I was on the board. I was chairman of the allocations committee one year. Harriet was on some committees.

Frankel: Were there places in Portland where Jews were not welcome?
BODNER: Yes. Some of the private clubs, definitely.

Frankel: And was that just accepted?
BODNER: No, not particularly. We had people like Gus Solomon and Moe Tonkon, who promoted… I don’t know if you know [Harry Stein’s] book on Gus Solomon. He tells about it there. I was invited. One of my good friends was an oral surgeon in the same building. He joined the University Club. He invited Phil Reiter and me to go to lunch there every once in a while, but we wouldn’t go.

Frankel: As guests they could bring Jewish people.
BODNER: I guess so, because he did invite us. We told him we wouldn’t go. Then (I’m trying to think what year it was) after a few years or so, I was invited (and Phil happened to be too, about the same time) by one of our Gentile dental friends, to join the Multnomah Athletic club. It had been originally sort of closed. I say “sort of” because there were some families who had been members for years. The old German families who had more money. Then they really opened it up and I was invited. I had to think about it a long time. I did join. I have been a member for 40 years now. It is a great club. There is not a trace of antisemitism or racism. They bend over backwards now to take in other races.

Frankel: What about other organizations such as the Ramblers, South Parkway. . .
BODNER: I didn’t belong to any of those. My younger brother belonged to Ramblers, and Herb and Molly Bodner went to the B.B. Camp every year. There was a group that went. And their children, my nephews, the JCC was very important to them. They’ve used it for years. After we were not using those two memberships, I finally dropped them. Although, when they built the new one, we had our name up in the lobby; we did give pretty well to build it. I thought it was important. I had some patients who put some pressure on me to join the Tualatin Country Club and I had no interest in golf. That I didn’t join. I had a few patients who said, “It is really shameful that a Jewish person doesn’t belong to Tualatin.”

Frankel: Was that club started because they could not join the other clubs?
BODNER: I suppose it was. It was all Jewish.

Frankel: Now, you said that when you went to Pearl Harbor, Harriet lived on the Eastside. When you came back, did you stay on the east side? Where did you live?
BODNER: We lived there for a little while and then, when our second child was coming along, we decided to look for something else. We bought a cute little house that had just been built in South Burlingame. It was $15,000. It gave me nightmares [laughs].

Frankel: When was the child born? Was it a boy or a girl?
BODNER: She was a girl. Helene was born in May of 1946. The birthdays of the two children were one day apart. After she was born we moved into the new little house, where everything was on one floor.

Frankel: Were there many Jews living in that area?
BODNER: There weren’t too many. May Georges lived there. May and Norman Berenson. Her name was Berenson then. I’m trying to think who else. Phil and Dorothy Reiter bought a little house. There were some others.

Frankel: Moving a little ahead to 1947, November, the United Nations voted in favor of partitioning. Do you have any memories of that day, of that event?
BODNER: I remember, but I am trying to think if I had any involvement. I was really so busy developing my practice and with the two little children. I wasn’t yet that involved.

Frankel: Would you say that the Jewish community was united or were there little enclaves?
BODNER: In those years there was a chasm between the German Jews and later immigrants. Gradually, there came to be more intermarriage between the two, but I remember when it was really something to talk about. Like when Stuart Durkheimer married Leah Knispel, whose parents came from Poland.

Frankel: Which institution played the most major role in the community?
BODNER: I think, going back so far, Federation did. 

Frankel: What function did it have in terms of being the leader, not just raising the money? And who ran Federation?
BODNER: Well, I am thinking of Dave Robinson, who I really didn’t know. I might have met him. We knew the executives very well – Morrie Stein etc.

Frankel: Did rabbis in the synagogues play a leading role in the community as you recall?
BODNER: Well, of course Rabbi Stampfer in the 1960s. But going back, there were rabbis who played a big part. There was a Rabbi Macabee, I think, who Harriet’s family knew very well. People like Hershel and Shirley Tanzer played a huge role over the years in all phases of Jewish activity.

Frankel: How would you say that the community changed?
BODNER: It became more unified. Definitely.

Frankel: You said early on that there was some anti-Zionist group. Did that change in 1948 when Israel became an independent state?
BODNER: It dwindled gradually because nobody really paid attention to them.

Frankel: Did Israel Independence Day stick in your mind?
BODNER: It was a wonderful day. It was celebrated.

Frankel: In the community?
BODNER: I think so. The community became more united. No doubt.

Frankel: I recall you saying that one of the reasons that your grandfather moved back to New York was so that the children would marry Jewishly. Did that remain important among families? That the children would marry other Jews?
BODNER: It did. My grandfather… in those days, nobody would have thought that was an extreme step to take. But even as we came along, it was something to talk about when somebody didn’t marry within the faith. Gradually, it is less strange.

Frankel: Now I know that you were not affected by the Urban Renewal Project of the 60s, but do you have any memories of those changes?
BODNER: Oh yes, I have. You know, we did go to South Portland. We went to Mosler’s Bakery for bagels and other things. My brother Herbert married Molly Subotnik and they lived right in the midst of it. Molly had been raised right there. My brother Bob married Esther Kirshner and they were married at the Meade Street Shul, Kesser Israel. Their son Jeffrey had a bar mitzvah at Meade Street.

Frankel: Esther Kirshner. How is she related to Gussie [Kirshner Reinhardt]?
BODNER: She is her niece. I don’t know if you know Anita and Judy Magid. Esther is the oldest sister. She lives in the desert of California. She was my brother’s wife. They lived in Irvington. They had “moved up.” Up and out. Hymie was quite successful. But Molly came from that South Portland milieu. So South Portland was not foreign to us at all. We went down there.

Frankel: Is there anything else that you want to talk about in closing?
BODNER: I could tell you about a Jewish family that I met in Tzingtao China. Parts of Tzingtao were very bad, but parts were on the Yellow River and were quite lovely. I used to drive around in my Jeep and I drove through this nice neighborhood, far off from the base. And I passed a nice house with one big window. It showed some beautiful Japanese kimonos in the window. I thought, “Gee, I would love to get one of those for Harriet.” So I parked the car and went up to the door to ring the bell and find out how much they cost. This little nice lady came to the door. She was about my mother’s age. I said, “I love that kimono in the window. I would love to ask you about it.” She said, “Come in.” So I did. She looked up at me and said, “Are you Jewish?” [laughs]. She was a Caucasian lady. I said, “Yes, I am Jewish.” She said, “You know, we can talk about the kimono later. Would you like to come home with me for tiffin? (which I guess is a Russian tea).” It seemed like it was perfectly harmless, so we drove. There was one big castle in Tzingtao with a big moat. That is where they lived. Her name was Zimmerman. She and her husband were White Russians who had left Russia during the Revolution and come down to Tzingtao, where they owned half the town. They were very wealthy people. They had an international fur business going out of New York. In Tzingtao they owned a dairy and they owned Tzingtao beer brewery. There was one lovely hotel on the water, they owned that too. And they owned a lot more. So she took me home and I met the family that lived there: Mr. and Mrs. Zimmerman, their nephew, who was an American who was married to a Soviet gal and had a little boy about five years old. Also in the household were untold numbers of servants. 

These people were just wonderful to me. Shortly after I met them, the little five year old boy came down with pneumonia. The kid was not doing well at all. The doctor they had over there said, if only we had the new drug called penicillin, we could try that. Well, they told me about it and we happened to have penicillin. It was a white powder. It had just come out. No pills or anything. I brought them a big bag of it and the child pulled through finally. Well, they just invited me constantly to everything they did. The only one in the family that I did not care for was the Soviet wife. They had a whole series of cars. They used them for parts. We would go through the moat and they would take me to the hotel. As you went over the moat there were all these Chinese laying around begging. The poverty was unbelievable. I said to the Soviet gal, who said she would never ever want to leave China She just loved being there. Well, she didn’t have to do a thing, you know, with all those servants. I said, “Doesn’t it depress you to see this?” It just hurt me terribly. She said, “I don’t even see them.”

Frankel: Did you keep in touch with that family?
BODNER: I could have. They gave me their business cards in New York. They had to leave there right after I did. They had already talked about it. As soon as the Chinese Reds came in, they were out of there. They were in New York, but I never followed through. But it was interesting to run into a Jewish family in China.

Frankel: Any other memories of Portland from way back, or comments about . . .?
BODNER: After you leave I will remember all kinds of things to say.

Frankel: Well, we can come back. I know this is long and you must be tired. Maybe we will stop for now. Thank you very much.