Clara Blackman Zusman

Barde: How are you?
ZUSMAN: OK.

Barde: Auntie Clara, I’d like to discuss the kinds of things that we talked about for a few minutes, about your history. Let me ask you first to tell me where you came from.
ZUSMAN: I come from Russia, naturally. The town is Lidvinka [older version of Ludvinka], but I didn’t spend all my time. When I got over 15, I went to a different town to learn a trade, sewing.

Barde: You were 15?
ZUSMAN: Or 14, or something like that. I stayed at a bigger town close to Odessa.

Barde: What was the name of the bigger town?
ZUSMAN: It was like here, like south over the bridge. [Golta, Bafolya, Rayev?]. Three different names.

Barde: Who did you live with when you were there?
ZUSMAN: I lived with some people that taught me dressmaking.

Barde: Oh, you were a dressmaker also.
ZUSMAN: Yes. I used to design dresses, too.

Barde: I didn’t know that. 
ZUSMAN: No, because I didn’t keep it up.

Barde: Let’s go back to before you were 14. Tell me who your parents were.
ZUSMAN: My parents? What do you mean?

Barde: What were their names?
ZUSMAN: My father’s name was — they used to call him — his name was Bern for short but they used to call him [Behreid?], the old-fashioned way. He was a cabinetmaker, and he was very good at it. My mother’s name was Sara — Sura. We had a very nice life. We were seven children in the family.

Barde: What was their last name?
ZUSMAN: The last name was Blackman. Of course, in Russia we were called “Blachman.” They came to spell “Blackman,” it’s easier. We had a nice life. Her mother — my sister and Goldie’s mother — she was dressmaking. She stayed with her folks until she got married. Then when she got married, her husband went to the service, to the Russian — to serve his time.

Barde: The army?
ZUSMAN: No, Louie.

Barde: Yes. He went to the army, though.
ZUSMAN: He went to the army, and when he got back they decide we should go — oh, he came on vacation. Then they decide to leave, not to go back.

Barde: Let’s come back to that pretty soon. Let’s talk about your family first. Did your mother have a job? 
ZUSMAN: No, my mother never worked. She had seven children to take care of. It wasn’t easy for her, but she was such a wonderful mother. We were five girls and two boys. We had a nice life. We didn’t know any different.

Barde: What kind of town was Lidvinka?
ZUSMAN: Let’s see, like Vancouver.

Barde: A small town.
ZUSMAN: Yes.

Barde: Was it a shtetl?
ZUSMAN: There were farmers. We lived among gentile Russian people who were very nice. We got along. I don’t remember bad things in my time, but I did remember that some of the czars were [placid?] people. They used to have the other people to work for them for nothing. And they refused to work, so they sent Cossacks to make them settle down and go back to work the way they used to. All the girls were afraid to be around there because they used to attack girls. So two of my — Molly, one of my sisters, and Beila, the oldest one, they went to a different town. They were afraid they would bring her back. And that’s where my oldest sister met her husband and they got married.

Barde: We’ll come back to that also. Did you see the Cossacks when they came?
ZUSMAN: We were hiding in the basement. They call it a [keler?], like they used to keep things cold.

Barde: A cellar.
ZUSMAN: Yes. So I really — we were afraid [inaudible].

Goldie: Did you see them at all? Did you see them on the horses?
ZUSMAN: I see them on horses, yes. Yes, I seen a big man, very big man.

Barde: Did they have swords?
ZUSMAN: Sure, yes. Big man, and dressed with those big hats.

Barde: They were mean people.
ZUSMAN: Mean. Oh, yes.

Barde: Were they after Jews particularly, or anybody?
ZUSMAN: No, they’d attack any of them.

Goldie: Mainly poor people?
ZUSMAN: No, they came just for those people that they wanted to work for the other — they used to call the high-toned people. They used to dress nicer and they lived better. The czar used to take care of those people.

Barde: Was your family Jewish?
ZUSMAN: Yes, Jewish. We never intermarried.

Barde: What kind of Jewish things do you remember as a family?
ZUSMAN: I remember our father used to go to synagogue. He used to go twice a day. He used to go in the morning and in the evening and Friday night and Saturday morning. Dad enjoyed kids; he was so nice.

Goldie: Did he lay tefillin?
ZUSMAN: Yes, sure. He used to daven [pray] every . . .

Barde: Were you kosher?
ZUSMAN: Kosher? Very.

Barde: Did you have house help?
ZUSMAN: No, we didn’t. All the kids helped a little. My father had two men working for him. They used to eat with us, too. Mother used to have to bake bread practically every other day to keep . . .

Goldie: How did Baba [Grandma] prepare for the Shabbos, for Friday nights?
ZUSMAN: We had an oven made that they used to cook everything Friday and put it in that oven and keep warm until Saturday, until we get to eat lunch or breakfast, whatever. The coffee was ready. Or we used to have a gentile girl to come in and light some of the fire.

Barde: Did you call that a Shabbos goy [gentile hired to perform chores on Shabbat]?
ZUSMAN: Shabbos goy, yes.

Goldie: How did Baba prepare to clean the house for Shabbos? Did she do anything more on Friday than she did other days?
ZUSMAN: Oh, yes. Of course. She used to get up at 5:00 AM in the morning, Friday morning, to bake challah. I used to get up with her, and I used to make myself — she said, “Go ahead to bed because it’s too hard for you.” I said, “I like to. I like to work with Mama.” Then she made a special challah, she baked special when the kids get up so they’ll have something to eat right away, the older children. Oh, it was fun.

Goldie: How did she clean the house? What kind of a floor? I heard there was some kind of special floor.
ZUSMAN: We had a wooden floor, painted. When the kids got older they used to take care of it. She always took good care of the kitchen. Mother used to help with, Mother and Rushka. Molly didn’t like housework [laughs]. They had a hard time with her.

Barde: Can you describe the house to me?
ZUSMAN: We had a double house. We rented one part and we lived in one. You know who lived there? Your father’s family!

Goldie: [Laughs] I didn’t know that!

Barde: What was their name?
ZUSMAN: [Puziss?].

Barde: Was that the name in Russia, the same name?
ZUSMAN: I don’t think so. I don’t remember. I know the boys. I know all the boys. There were three boys.

Barde: Louie?
ZUSMAN: Louie and another two. One lived in Philadelphia.

Goldie: He changed his name to Poland.
ZUSMAN: And Velvl. That’s how Rushka got, my sister, with Louie. But after a while they built a nice home. They used to make men’s clothing, your grandfather. They built another one. They moved up. And we rented [inaudible].

Barde: Was your house made of wood, or was it made of stone, the walls?
ZUSMAN: No, just [inaudible word].

Barde: If you look at the house in your memory from the outside, from the street, what does it look like to you?
ZUSMAN: It looked like you see here a double house, but they had a straw roof.

Goldie: Thatched?
Barde: Straw roof. Straw?
ZUSMAN: Straw.

Barde: So it could burn. If they had a fire, it would burn.
ZUSMAN: I don’t know what was on top there. We had a garden right in front, was beautiful.

Barde: What kind of street was it? Was it a dirt street?
ZUSMAN: No, it was close to the synagogue, not too far, very nice. One of the rabbis lived next to us. They had their own home.

Barde: What was his name?
ZUSMAN: He married Beila, my sister, the rabbi, outside the [inaudible word]. I still remember. We were kids, [inaudible], and Mother made us white little dresses, and we were marching, the whole street, the main street to the synagogue, and they got married outside under the canopy, the huppah. I remember — I just saw that — it was so nice, the way he used to sing, so beautiful, the rabbi.

Barde: Did you share your bedroom with somebody?
ZUSMAN: I used to sleep with my mother all the time.

Barde: With Rushka?
ZUSMAN: Rushka.

Barde: Just the two of you?
ZUSMAN: Just the two of us.

Barde: The other children had other rooms?
ZUSMAN: Yes, and then there’s another sofa. And then we had two bedrooms. Mother and Dad occupied one bedroom and the other some of the children. It wasn’t easy.

Barde: What about bathroom facilities?
ZUSMAN: Bathroom? We used to go outside.

Barde: How did you do that in the winter?
ZUSMAN: In the winter, too.

Barde: Was it a hard winter?
ZUSMAN: Oh, sure. A lot of snow. Frozen. We used to dress up and walk like nothing happened. We used to dress nice. Your father used to go to the store and bring us all kinds of shoes to try it on and [inaudible]. I don’t know. I don’t remember. I remember it was nice, I enjoyed.

Barde: Those are good memories, aren’t they?
ZUSMAN: Beautiful. It’s a beautiful memory. 

Goldie: Mama said you had a cow.
ZUSMAN: No, we had goats.

Goldie: Goats! You drank the milk?
ZUSMAN: Yes. We had about three. Yes, we used to drink milk all the time. My mother used to live on milk.

Barde: How did you keep it cold in the summertime?
ZUSMAN: We used to drink it right from the — right where we got it.

Barde: Where did you go shopping for groceries?
ZUSMAN: They used to have a market. They come out from different small countries.

Barde: Like a farmers market.
ZUSMAN: Like a farmers market. They spread out on the street. They have all kinds of things. We used to shop once a week. Once a week they used to have the market.

Barde: How far did you go to the market?
ZUSMAN: It wasn’t so far, just about two blocks. They had chickens. We had to buy live chickens.

Barde: You had to kasher it.
ZUSMAN: No, and then we take it to the schochet [kosher butcher] to kill it. Oh, that was hard work.

Barde: Was there a mohel [one who performs circumcisions] in town?
ZUSMAN: I suppose, sure.

Barde: Was there a mikvah [ritual bath]?
ZUSMAN: Yes. Mother used to go to mikvah, used to take me along. I remember I used to go down to — she tell her what to do. A woman is there and tells her how to do it.

Barde: How far did you have to walk to the mikvah?
ZUSMAN: Gosh, I was so young at that time.

Barde: An easy walk though.
ZUSMAN: Of course. I must have been about two or three years old. I remember my mother used to go shopping. When she was in the family way with Morris, my brother, she was about — she expected any minute . . .

Barde: Morris was the baby?
ZUSMAN: Yes, he’s the youngest. I was two years older than him. So Mother takes me by my hand. She said, “Before anything happens, I have to buy things for Shabbos in case I have to have the baby.” When we did the shopping, I remember her taking me by my hand — I was two years old — and we went shopping, and you have to buy nahit.

Clara: [To Nephew] Do you know what nahit is? Garbanzo beans.
ZUSMAN: When they have a boy . . .

Goldie Pidyon ha’ben [redemption of the firstborn son, celebration of birth].
ZUSMAN: Or something like that. So she came home, and we called the midwife and she had the baby! I remember, right there by the window. He was so beautiful, Morris, so nice.

Barde: Did you go to school?
ZUSMAN: They didn’t allow Jewish people in school, the Russians, but they used to have a teacher come into the house and teach us Hebrew. There was another teacher that opened up for the Jewish kids, but you had to pay. You had to pay to join it, so I went there a few times. I learned how to read, how to write. I used to write Jewish.

Barde: In Yiddish? Not Russian?
ZUSMAN: Yes. Russian too. The one used to come to the house to teach it. I was really the only one.

Barde: You were the only one who did that?
ZUSMAN: In the family.

Barde: Rose never did that?
ZUSMAN: No, she didn’t.

Barde: And Molly never did that?
ZUSMAN: Molly didn’t either.

Barde: How come you did? How come you were the only one?
ZUSMAN: I don’t know. I guess maybe I wanted to, or something. I don’t know what happened, but I did. I used to write to my sister in South America Jewish letters. Of course, they wrote in Spanish. She didn’t write. Molly couldn’t.

Barde: Let’s talk about your brothers and sisters. The oldest is who?
ZUSMAN: My brother is oldest, Abe.

Barde: What was his name? You called him Abe? You called him something else?
ZUSMAN: Avrum [pronounced Ahv-room]. 

Barde: Avrum. Yiddish.
ZUSMAN: Avrum. And Beila is the next, and Molly is the third, and Rushka, and Bertha, and I am the fifth.

Barde: Did you all get along, or did you fight with each other?
ZUSMAN: No, we got along. We loved each other.

Barde: Was your father a disciplinarian? Was he a hard father?
ZUSMAN: No. He didn’t like the idea — Friday night there used to be a few boys come over, and they used to [inaudible word] the [shelskas?].

Barde: The seeds.
ZUSMAN: Seeds, and they use to get the floor all dirty [laughter]. Father, he didn’t like that. He said, “Look what you’re doing to the . . ..” Got everything dirty, too much noise, and he made them all leave [laughter]. [Inaudible] the kids. I was young. I was too young then. I didn’t. But Rushka — Mother didn’t like that, and the others didn’t like it, either. But otherwise . . .

Goldie: But Baba, your mother, was more easygoing.
ZUSMAN: Oh, yes. Mother was easygoing. She was just so good.

Goldie: She was a very good balabusta [homemaker], wasn’t she?
ZUSMAN: Yes. So neat. So wonderful.

Barde: Did she read or write?
ZUSMAN: Mother? No, she couldn’t.

Goldie: How about Zayde [Grandfather]? 
ZUSMAN: Zayde, I suppose he did.

Goldie: He read Hebrew.
ZUSMAN: He had to keep . . .

Barde: Business books.
ZUSMAN: Yes, he was very educated in Hebrew. Yes, very much. Arie, my nephew, Ruth’s son, later he is retired.

Barde: Abe’s son.
ZUSMAN: You remember when they went away. So I used to send him a little money for expense, and my father used to send it to Israel.

Barde: Palestine. Did anybody in the family go to Palestine?
ZUSMAN: Yes. [Inaudible first name] [Rutner?] went, and Louie went.

Barde: No, I’m talking about your brothers and sisters.
ZUSMAN: No.

Barde: Did you have youth groups, groups of children that joined clubs, that kind of thing?
ZUSMAN: My age?

Barde: No Jewish groups?
ZUSMAN: I used to have friends.

Barde: Most of your friends were Jewish?
ZUSMAN: Yes. When I went to work in another town, I got acquainted with the students, gentile [inaudible word]. We used to go up canoeing with guitars, balalaika. I had a nice life because I enjoyed those things, and they didn’t.

Barde: Did you dance?
ZUSMAN: Yes.

Barde: You liked to play.
ZUSMAN: Yes. My life wasn’t bad at all.

Barde: What’s your best memory of your mother?
ZUSMAN: She’s always in my memory with the best.

Barde: What do you think of when you think of your mother?
ZUSMAN: I love her. l love her. I got the picture right there in front of me in the bedroom.

Barde: [To Goldie] Can you get that?
Goldie: Yes.

Barde: What about your father? What’s your memory of your father?
ZUSMAN: We weren’t too close. I wasn’t. That picture, honey, of Mother is right there in that frame.

Goldie: That’s Baba?
ZUSMAN: That’s her. 

Goldie: I see it. OK. 
ZUSMAN: I loved my mother. She loved me so, too.

Barde: Did your mother and father grow up in Lidvinka also? 
ZUSMAN: No.

Barde: Where did they come from?
ZUSMAN: They were [cousins?]. [Looking at photo] Look at that.

Barde: I didn’t see. It’s so dusty. Where did your mother and father come from?
ZUSMAN: Mother, I don’t really — it’s a place on the other side, like Vancouver here.

Barde: Across the river.
ZUSMAN: Yes.  

Barde: And your father?
ZUSMAN: My father. I guess my mother lived there, too. They just happened to meet, and he said she looked so beautiful.

Barde: How come they came to Lidvinka?
ZUSMAN: How they came to live there? I don’t know. They came to live there.

Barde: Do you remember your grandparents?
ZUSMAN: My grandparents? Well, my mother’s . . .

Barde: Sara’s mother.
ZUSMAN: See. I thought it was hand-painted, but it was plain [referring to photo]. I tried to wash it, and I spoiled my darling mother.

Barde: This is beautiful. Now this is your father? And this is your mother? We’ll talk about this. Leave it aside. Did you bring this from Russia with you?
ZUSMAN: No.

Barde: They did it here. I would like to talk about medical care. What kind of doctors did you have?
ZUSMAN: They had doctors. They called them [fencers?]. They’re not exactly doctors. If something happened, you go to them.

Barde: Were they Jewish?
ZUSMAN: No.

Barde: Did you have a hospital?
ZUSMAN: I don’t think so.

Barde: I noticed when I looked at the map yesterday that Odessa is not very far from the Black Sea. How far was Lidvinka from the ocean? Did you go to the Black Sea very often?
Goldie:   To the ocean, to the beaches.
ZUSMAN: No.

Barde: You never went.
Goldie:   Did you have transportation, like a cart, or did you have a wagon to go anyplace?
ZUSMAN: No. When we went to work, they had a horse and wagon.

Barde: For the business.
ZUSMAN: It was about 25 miles or more we had to go, sit there on the wagon.

Barde: Did you go to Odessa?
ZUSMAN: No. [They are looking at a photo. Inaudible remarks.] [Firma?], she went with her mother most of her life.

Goldie:   How was Firma related to you?
ZUSMAN: Firma? [There’s background noise on the tape here. Inaudible remarks.] They came to this country [inaudible].

Barde: Where did they live in Russia?
ZUSMAN: They lived in the same city where we lived.

Barde: Lidvinka?
ZUSMAN: Yes.

Barde: But you never went to Odessa, either?
ZUSMAN: No, I didn’t.

Barde: Did you hear stories about the big town, the big city?
ZUSMAN: Sure. It’s a beautiful city, really beautiful. That’s what I’ve heard, but I haven’t been there.

Barde: Did you ever go inside a synagogue in Lidvinka?
ZUSMAN: Of course.

Barde: When did you do that? For Shabbos?
ZUSMAN: Yes. Usually holidays, the main holidays.

Barde: Did the men sit separate from the women?
ZUSMAN: Yes. Men sit separate and women separate. For a long time, I was already married when we were sitting separate.

Barde: OK. What about funerals? Did they have hevra kadisha [burial societies] there?
ZUSMAN: I don’t know. You see, my grandfather, mother’s — I never met my father’s family, never. I didn’t know any of them. But my mother said she had two brothers that were . . .

Barde: Your uncles.
ZUSMAN: Yes.

Barde: Do you know their names?
ZUSMAN: One was the same name as my father had. The other one was Itzik.

Barde: Itzy. Isadore?
ZUSMAN: It was something like that. He was the nicest [inaudible word]. He was just like Mother. He was so good. We used to go to visit them sometimes.

Barde: Where did they live?
ZUSMAN: They lived in another town a little ways from where we lived, but we used to go to visit them. They were in the bakery business. They used to bake bread. That’s how Bertha met Sam, her husband. They’re cousins. She came there and she did their dressmaking and she met him. They fell in love and here they are.

Barde: Let’s talk about your brothers first. The first brother was Avrum. Who did he marry?
ZUSMAN: He married a [Bapolian?] girl.

Barde: What kind of girl?
ZUSMAN: From where I worked, that town, [Bapoli?], he married a girl there.

Barde: What was her name?
ZUSMAN: Rivka was her name. Brofman.

Barde: That was her last name, her family name.
ZUSMAN: Yes.

Barde: How old was Avrum when they got married?
ZUSMAN: He was young, maybe about 22.

Barde: Did you go to the wedding?
ZUSMAN: Yes, we all went to the wedding. We all left to — of course, Mother had just a little baby in her arms at that time. We all went, sure.

Barde: Do you remember the wedding?
ZUSMAN: Yes, sure.

Goldie:   Did they have music?
ZUSMAN: Of course. They had a nice hall, beautiful. Rivka, she looked so nice. She was beautiful. She came to our — for some kind of holiday she came to us to visit before she was married. We all watched her. She had a beautiful big hat and dress. She was tall, and we watched her coming from a certain street. Before they were married she came to visit. At that time, Mother — I forgot the name of the holiday.

Barde: Pesach?
ZUSMAN: Not Pesach, no.

Barde: Purim.
ZUSMAN: Purim, maybe so. They make knishes.

Barde: Hamentashen.
ZUSMAN: No, knishes. That’s what we had. I remember that Mama baked so many things that day. I mean, to prepare when she’s coming. Everything was so beautiful. I remember good things.

Barde: How old do you think you were at that wedding?
ZUSMAN: I don’t know. Maybe I was three or four years old.

Barde: You were a little girl.
Goldie:   If she carried Morris in her arms, she had to be about three years old, two and a half.
Barde: That’s right. And Avrum and Rivka had one boy and one girl. Do you remember their names?
ZUSMAN: Rivka was her name. Harry Blachman.

Barde: They were born in Russia.
ZUSMAN: No, they were . . .

Barde: They were born here. We’ll talk about all that later.
ZUSMAN: That’s a long story.

Barde: Now, the second child was Beila. And who did Beila marry?
ZUSMAN: I told you, when she made the trip when the Cossacks were here, that’s how she met her husband.

Barde: Moshe.
ZUSMAN: Moshe Brafman, she married.

Barde: Another Brafman.
ZUSMAN: They were related.

Barde: And how many children did they have?
ZUSMAN: She had five.

Barde: Do you remember their names?
ZUSMAN: Carla. The oldest one was Manya, a girl. They were born in Russia, in [Rukha?]. Then Carla and the other two. I don’t remember their names.

Barde: It was Carla who went to Argentina, who went to South America?
ZUSMAN: My sister — no, her husband went.

Barde: Oh, [Bass?] and Beila went to Argentina.
ZUSMAN: He came on a trip from when he was in the service. He left the service. He decided to escape, not to go back, so he went to Argentina. Naturally, he was there so she had to go . . .

Goldie:   Why did he choose South America? Why didn’t he come to North America?
ZUSMAN: It was easier to get there than to this country.

Barde: In those days. Now the third child was Molly, and she married Nachman?
ZUSMAN: Nachman came to my sister’s wedding [laughs], to Beila, when Beila got married. And they are cousins, too. He took to Molly. He wanted Molly. He was full of life, that Nachman. He wouldn’t leave. He stayed in this town. He was a very good baker. He got himself a job.

Barde: In Lidvinka?
ZUSMAN: Yes, and he stayed so he got to see Molly. My mother didn’t want him. My dad didn’t want him as a husband.

Goldie:   Why didn’t they want him?
ZUSMAN: I don’t know. They thought she should get something better than that.

Barde: Did you like him?
ZUSMAN: I liked him, yes. He used to bring us things, Morris and I. We were just kids. He was in the house all the time.

Barde: What was Molly’s name in Russia?
ZUSMAN: Molla. Molla was so beautiful. She was so good-looking.

Barde: And they had four children.
ZUSMAN: Yes, they had four boys. Oh, they had a little girl who passed away, a little girl.

Barde: In Russia, or in this country?
ZUSMAN: In Russia.

Barde: And were the boys all born here?
ZUSMAN: No, two of them were born there.

Barde: Which ones?
ZUSMAN: Sammy and Morris were born there, and Louis and [Vey?] was born in this country.

Barde: The next child was Rushka.
ZUSMAN: The third.

Barde: The fourth.
ZUSMAN: No, the third. Bertha is the fourth.

Barde: I’ve got it wrong here. The first one is Avrum, the second one is Beila, then Molly, Rushka is fourth. Rushka married Louis, and that’s because he lived next door.
ZUSMAN: Yes. They used to go together.

Goldie:   Mama told me that she had a lot of boyfriends and she was rather popular, but Louie persisted.
ZUSMAN: Louie was a good-looking man. Your dad was a good-looking boy. A nice, respectable boy. We all liked him.

Barde: He was a tailor?
ZUSMAN: [Inaudible] for a tailor [laughter]!

Barde: We know about that family. There were five children from this family, from Rushka’s family, right? The oldest one is Abe.
ZUSMAN: Yes. Abe, then Fanny and Mary and Goldie.

Barde: And then Irv.
ZUSMAN: Irv is the youngest.

Barde: Then after Rushka came Bertha?
ZUSMAN: Yes, then Bertha.

Barde: Who did she marry?
ZUSMAN: She married that cousin, my husband’s cousin, Sam.

Barde: What was his name in Russia? It wasn’t Sam.
ZUSMAN: Schmeil. 

Barde: And they had two children.
ZUSMAN: One. Bernard.

Barde: Bernard? Who is Bernard?
Goldie:   The grandson.

Barde: They just had one, Rose only. That’s right. And next comes Clara. What was your name in Russia?
ZUSMAN: My name was the same thing, Clara.

Barde: Your name didn’t change. And you met Ben.
ZUSMAN: No, I was married before.

Barde: I didn’t know this. Tell me about this.
ZUSMAN: I was married to Dave [Nepa?]. We were ten years together.

Barde: Where did you meet him? In this country?
ZUSMAN: I got acquainted with his sister.

Barde: Here?
ZUSMAN: Yes. I got acquainted with his sister. I don’t know. We got good friends. She introduced me to him and that’s how we got together. He didn’t have too much, but he had a car [Goldie laughs]. He had a beautiful car. He used to drive jitney, ten cents a ride. So I said [inaudible] used to ride in the car. He was very good, and at first we got along.

Barde: And finally was Morris. Morris was the baby. Was his name Morris in Russia, or was it Moshe?
ZUSMAN: Moshe.

Barde: Who did he marry?
ZUSMAN: He married [inaudible] was no good.

Barde: In this country he married. Was that Ann?
ZUSMAN: He married [inaudible] and didn’t get along, and he divorced her, and then he got acquainted with one in Los Angeles and married her. He was divorced and married again. He had three children by Ann.

Barde: What are the names of the children?
Goldie:   Helene is one. That’s all I remember.

Barde: Do you remember the others?
Goldie:   A boy and a girl.

Barde: OK. So this is your family. We have Sara the mother. The father was Beryl?
ZUSMAN: Bern [Berlaid?].

Barde: And the seven children.
ZUSMAN: Seven children. They had more. Mother had miscarriages a lot, and that’s no use to talk about it. And some of them passed on, too.

Barde: There were others that passed on when they were little babies? Do you know how many?
ZUSMAN: I think about two or three boys. They were young. It was a bad time, didn’t have a doctor or something. He had a bad cough and didn’t have a doctor to treat him. Beautiful. I remember them. They were so beautiful.

Barde: Do you remember when you were born? The date, the year.
ZUSMAN: No. I don’t even remember the month. My mother didn’t remember. I mean, she just — they don’t . . .

Goldie:  Keep records.
ZUSMAN: Keep records on girls, only on boys because they have to go into the service. They don’t pay attention to girls. So we made our own month. I really don’t know exactly what year.

Goldie:   About? How old are you?
ZUSMAN: Well, as I say, I’m close to 90.

Barde: So that would be a long time ago. The 1800s. 1897.
ZUSMAN: A long time is right. I tell you, my [manya?], I’m not too happy with my life. I had a lot of trouble. It was a lonesome life, very lonesome. 

Barde: Let me ask you — at some point the family decided to move to America. How did that happen?
ZUSMAN: My oldest brother, Avrum, he decide — he had friends here in Portland, well, in [inaudible word]. They went to America. So he wrote to him and says, “Avrum, why don’t you come? You can make a better life here than you have over there.” So he decided to go. He left his wife. He had to go alone. He didn’t have enough money for two. She stayed with us, his wife. She lived with us, and he went there. [Ristroble?] came to this country [inaudible] planning, had to work for — he was a carpenter.

Barde: Where did he go?
ZUSMAN: He went first to New York, where the people lived [inaudible]. They lived in Portland. So he decided to come to Portland, and he used to correspond with him, to us, and then the war was coming on.

Barde: What war?
ZUSMAN: The World War. 1912, 1913.

Barde: Before the Revolution.
ZUSMAN: Yes. So he said it’s a good idea, to us, you should decide to come to this country. Sell everything because later you wouldn’t have a chance. So he did that, and that’s how we came.

Barde: Everybody came at one time?
ZUSMAN: Practically, yes, except we left Molly there. We didn’t have enough money. But then when we got from the house . . .

Barde: Who decided that Molly should be the one to stay?
Goldie:   Did she decide she would stay?
ZUSMAN: It’s not decide. We couldn’t take her.

Goldie:   How come you decided Molly instead of somebody else?
ZUSMAN: Your mother was married to your dad, and your dad wanted to go. And Nachman came with us, too.

Barde: But Molly stayed.
ZUSMAN: Molly stayed, and after we came here and we started to work, we sent her money and she came.

Goldie:   Tell us the story about you all got to Hamburg, waiting for the boat, and then your mother got sick.
Barde: So you traveled to Hamburg in Germany.
ZUSMAN: We took the boat. We were supposed to take the boat in Hamburg, Germany.

Barde: How did you get to Germany?
ZUSMAN: We go by train.

Barde: Where did you catch the train?
ZUSMAN: We catch it in Lidvinka and then we go and we stop in another, [Bopolia?], and we catch another train until we got to Hamburg.

Goldie:   In those days they didn’t stop you at the border, did they?
ZUSMAN: No, we had a passport.

Goldie:   But they didn’t stop you?
Barde: Because you were Jewish. It didn’t matter. You could go.
ZUSMAN: No, we had a passport with all the names on it. No, they didn’t stop us.

Barde: How old was Morris when you did this?
ZUSMAN: Morris was 14.

Barde: By then. So he could travel easily.
ZUSMAN: And I was 16. We went steerage on the boat. Mama was sick and I was sick. She got sick in Hamburg. We were supposed to take the boat there, but she got sick and they had to take her to the hospital, so the others left, like Rushka, [inaudible] and all of the others. They left and went to Philadelphia, and I stayed with Father, and my brother stayed until Mother would get better.

Barde: What was wrong with her?
ZUSMAN: I don’t know what was wrong; she just got sick.

Barde: So who stayed with her?
ZUSMAN: She was in the hospital.

Barde: Who stayed?
ZUSMAN: I stayed, and my father, naturally, and my brother. The others went on because they went to Philadelphia and we were going to Portland.

Barde: I see. So how long did you stay in Hamburg while she got well?
ZUSMAN: For two weeks we stayed in Hamburg. Then we got better, and we took the boat and we came to Ellis Island.

Barde: I was going to ask you about this. Let’s wait a minute. That’s a very important part of the story.
ZUSMAN: That I’ll never forget.

Barde: We’ll talk about that in a minute. How did you buy your tickets? What money did you use?
ZUSMAN: To where, to come here?

Barde: Yes, from Hamburg. You had money because you sold the house?
ZUSMAN: No, we didn’t have it. We wanted to stay in New York, but they wouldn’t let us. Father was about 70 years old. He couldn’t work. And I was only 16. Morris couldn’t go to work; he was too young. So I was the only one. They said, “You can’t support three people,” I mean on me, but there was Mother, of course, there. We came with a book full of money. He said, “I’ll take care of this.” You have to have a son to support everybody.

Goldie:   I need to ask a question here. When Rosie — Rushka — and those people came two weeks ahead of you, did they land in Ellis Island or did they land in Philadelphia? 
ZUSMAN: Philadelphia.

Goldie: So they didn’t go to Ellis Island.
ZUSMAN: No. Bertha was in [Belgium?]. Bertha, my sister Bertha Blackman, was in Belgium. She found out when we were coming to this country, and when we were in Ellis Island, she came to see us. I tell you, that was something.

Barde: When you all decided to leave Lidvinka, you sold everything?
ZUSMAN: Yes.

Barde: You only brought luggage and clothes, and that’s all you brought.
ZUSMAN: That’s all. And when we came here we stayed with my brother, and after we stayed there a couple of weeks, we were looking for work. Morris would go and sell papers. They used to have a route. So we rented an apartment, $10 a month. Milk 10 cents a quart, bread 10 cents; everything was so cheap.

Goldie:   Let me ask you another question. My mother told me when you were planning to come to America, you planned it so that when they came on furlough from the army, that they could leave at that time so they wouldn’t have to report back in, because if they stuck around any longer they would be found.
ZUSMAN: Right, and would have to go back.

Goldie:   So what they did was go AWOL.
ZUSMAN: Right.

Barde: When you finally got to Ellis Island, did you know where the rest of your family was? How did you know?
ZUSMAN: Yes. They were supposed to be on the same boat to go to Philadelphia. We went to New York. 

Barde: And who came to get you from Ellis Island?
ZUSMAN: The authorities said they would take care of it, the Jewish society.

Barde: They were very helpful.
ZUSMAN: No, because my brother lived in Portland. He couldn’t come. We were going to work there, maybe father would do a little something. We’d make our own money. We didn’t want to bother my brother because we didn’t think he had that kind of money. So what happened? You wanted to know the rest?

Barde: We’ll come back. Tell me about Ellis Island. The boat landed at Ellis Island, and your mother was feeling OK by then?
ZUSMAN: Yes, she was all right. Everybody admired me. I had beautiful, long black hair. It looked so beautiful. They couldn’t get over it. We stayed there two weeks.

Barde: In Ellis Island. What do you remember about that?
ZUSMAN: I remember that they served Jewish food, all Jewish food, good food.

Barde: Did you have to have an examination?
ZUSMAN: Yes. They were so strict at that time. Any little thing. Oh, of course. They examined you thoroughly — your ears, your mouth, your teeth. You had to be perfect to get in. Some of them they sent back or something.

Barde: Nobody in your family?
ZUSMAN: No.

Barde: The people that were sent back, did you know any of them?
ZUSMAN: No, mostly gentiles. One woman came there, and she was in the family way. She came for her boyfriend. She comes in the family way, gevalt, from somebody. A gentile woman, a Russian. So when he find out he came, he says, “No. I don’t want you with somebody else’s child.” They sent her back.

Barde: Were these people who had to go back very unhappy?
ZUSMAN: Very. A black man comes, a black [inaudible], and he had to go back. It’s so sad. You just want to cry to see that.

Barde: What kind of sleeping did you have? What kind of an apartment did you have on Ellis Island, a big dormitory?
Goldie:   Did you have a private room for your family, or did you all sleep in one big room with lots of beds?
ZUSMAN: No, I think we had the rooms. I can’t remember exactly.

Goldie:   Why do you think it took so long, two weeks?
ZUSMAN: We thought maybe we’d persuade them to let us stay in New York. Then they said they’re going to send us back, because they couldn’t let us — somebody has to support. So Mother got scared, and of course she said, “I have a son in Portland, but I don’t know if he has . . .”

Goldie: Why didn’t you say something?
Barde: Who was she talking to, the officials?
ZUSMAN: The officials, the Jewish society.

Barde: So you left Ellis Island then.
ZUSMAN: No. They had to write to my brother, and to send the money for us to come. Then Bertha wanted to come with us, too, Bertha and her husband. They were there. So my brother didn’t have the money. He had a friend. He says, “I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I’ll sign. Let’s go to [Ben Selling?].” It was a Jewish society.

Barde: What was the name of it?
ZUSMAN: Ben Selling. He was in business, in men’s furnishings. It was a society, sort of. He says, “You borrow the money there and you pay it back when they start to work, and you take care of.” So he did. He gave him the money, and my brother sent it to us to buy the tickets, and then we came.

Barde: On the train?
ZUSMAN: On the train. Five days [laughs]!

Barde: You remember that trip.
ZUSMAN: Sure. Five days you have to go on the train, sit in one place.

Barde: That was your first time in this country? Were you surprised to see anything?
ZUSMAN: I didn’t like it.

Barde: Why not?
ZUSMAN: When we came to the station . . .

Barde: In Portland.
ZUSMAN: It was raining and it was cloudy. I thought the music would be in the streets and light. I was very disappointed, didn’t like it at all.

Goldie:   You were just a teenager, too.
ZUSMAN: Yes. I said, “Mama, I don’t like this country.”

Barde: Did your family speak Yiddish all the time?
ZUSMAN: Yes.

Barde: How were you able to learn English?
ZUSMAN: I went to night school. I got a job.

Barde: We’ll come to this in a minute. Now when you got to Ellis Island, Morris sent you a ticket?
ZUSMAN: Avrum did.

Barde: He sent you a ticket.
ZUSMAN: Tickets for all of us.

Barde: You were in Ellis Island when you got the tickets?
ZUSMAN: Yes.

Barde: So you left right away then?
ZUSMAN: Then they put us on the train.

Barde: And right away you went. You went through New York, and you didn’t . . .
ZUSMAN: To Portland.

Barde: You didn’t stop at all. You didn’t stop in New York.
ZUSMAN: No. What I seen in New York in the Yiddish section, I didn’t like it. Women go with shawls and funny clothes. Oh, boy. I didn’t like this country.

Goldie:   You were in Ellis Island, but what about Rosie and Louie? They were in Philadelphia.
ZUSMAN: They were. They came to Portland.

Barde: So you came to Portland before them. And how much later did Rose and Louie come?
ZUSMAN: When they found out we’re in Portland.

Barde: Right away.
ZUSMAN: [Inaudible.] Nachman and the family [inaudible], they wanted to come back.

Barde: How much later did Molly come?
ZUSMAN: I don’t know, maybe a year, because it takes money. We had to pay for the fare.

Barde: We’ll take a rest for a minute. 

[Recording stops then resumes.]

Barde: Before our break, we started talking about your arrival into this country. Let me ask you a couple of questions that I’m not sure about. You landed in Ellis Island, and Avrum was in Portland. How did he know you were at Ellis Island?
ZUSMAN: Of course he knew.

Barde: How did he know?
ZUSMAN: They told us, you stop in Ellis Island.

Barde: How did Avrum know you were there?
ZUSMAN: We let him know.

Barde: You called him, or you wrote a letter?
ZUSMAN: No, the society did it. The people that took care, they wrote to him and let him know.

Barde: At that time, Rushka and Louie were still in Philadelphia. They were there just a couple of weeks?
ZUSMAN: I don’t remember exactly the time.

Barde: Did they have family or friends they knew in Philadelphia?
ZUSMAN: Yes.

Barde: Who was there?
Goldie:   Louie’s family. Papa’s brothers.
ZUSMAN: I think the brothers were there. He must have had family because he went there. And Nachman had the sisters there, two sisters and two brothers. That’s the reason he wanted to go to Philadelphia.

Barde: So the only reason you came to Portland was because Avrum was here.
ZUSMAN: Right.

Barde: Because Portland’s a long way from the East Coast, from New York.
ZUSMAN: I know that, sure.

Barde: What time of year was that, that you arrived in Ellis Island?
ZUSMAN: They wouldn’t let us stay in New York, and they wanted to send them back to Russia.

Barde: Was it summertime or springtime? Was it cold or was it hot?
ZUSMAN: It was springtime, I think.

Barde: Do you remember what year?
ZUSMAN: No.

Goldie:   How old were you? 17? 16?
ZUSMAN: No, 16. In 1913.

Barde: About 1913. The war was still going on.
ZUSMAN: No, it started in ’15.

Goldie:   I think it started in ’14.
Barde: So you came to Portland. Where did Avrum live?
ZUSMAN: He lived on the east side, in Brooklyn.

Goldie:   The Brooklyn neighborhood.
ZUSMAN: He lived close to [inaudible].

Barde: He and Rivka.
ZUSMAN: Yes, and they had a boy here, Harry. They had a little girl, too, Bertha.

Barde: Did you meet them? Do you remember them?
ZUSMAN: Oh, sure.

Barde: What business was Avrum in? What kind of work did he do?
ZUSMAN: When he was in Los Angeles . . .

Goldie:   No, here.
ZUSMAN: When he came here he was a carpenter.

Barde: So he built houses? 
Goldie:   Cabinets?
ZUSMAN: Yes, cabinets.

Barde: Like his father.
ZUSMAN: Like his father. Like my father. He made very little money. At that time they didn’t pay him very much, so then he got in business. He got in the grocery business.

Barde: In Portland. Where was this?
ZUSMAN: It was also on the east side, on Hawthorne. He did pretty good there. So then he sold that and he got a grocery store in another place on the east side. Mt. Tabor. No, I don’t remember. Then after that he decided he wanted to go to Los Angeles. He went to Los Angeles and started to buy property, and he did wonderful. He did good. That’s how he got [inaudible]. He opened up a big market. [Aaron?] was already able to help him in the store. After Eric, the boy, could take care of it, so he let him have it.

Goldie:   He opened the White Front store [which became what was at one time the leading chain of discount stores in the US].
Barde: Of course he did well! That’s why I met Harry when I was in Los Angeles.
Goldie:   You met him. He took you to his home, which was the former [storage raft?] mansion.
Barde: I met Harry when I lived in Los Angeles.
ZUSMAN: You did! Really?

Barde: Rushka told me about Harry, and I went to see him one time. By then he had already gotten out of the White Front stores. He was all finished.
ZUSMAN: He sold them, did very good. The people who bought it didn’t make good at all.

Barde: When did Avrum pass away?
ZUSMAN: I don’t know, a long time ago.

Barde: When he went to Los Angeles, did you see him?
ZUSMAN: Yes.

Barde: You went there or he came here?
ZUSMAN: I went special to see him. I went to Los Angeles, and he was in a home. He had a private schvartze [a Black person], a private woman to take care of him. He looked so nice, so beautiful.

Barde: Rivka was still alive?
ZUSMAN: No.

Barde: So when you went there, she was already passed away. Was she ill?
ZUSMAN: She was in the hospital. She passed away. And he was in a home when I came to see him, but he had good care. He had a woman. Eric saw to that, that he was taken care of.

Barde: How much older than you was Avrum?
ZUSMAN: He is the oldest; I’m the youngest.

Goldie:   About ten years, 20 years?
ZUSMAN: No. I don’t know. I really don’t remember how old I was at that time.

Barde: Were you married when you went down to visit him?
ZUSMAN: Yes, I was married to Ben when I went down to see him.

Barde: Let’s talk about Ben. Where did you meet Ben?
ZUSMAN: I met Ben — when I divorced with Dave, I would visit my brother Avrum in Los Angeles. They were good friends with his folks. He used to live in Portland. Ben came with them one time, and after —  never paid attention, but he said very suddenly, right away he fell for me. Then Bertha got married. They were invited to the wedding, and he came to the wedding. But still nothing happened. I bought a beautiful dress for the wedding. I bought a black jacket and a pink dress, a long dress. I was dressed up to go to the wedding. My brother comes into the room. He couldn’t get over it, I looked so beautiful. He said, “You look better than the bride!” [laughs]. I looked so beautiful with that long dress and that velvet jacket. He just couldn’t get over it, how beautiful I looked. So anyway, somehow that’s what happened. When I came back to Portland — I stayed there eight months.

Barde: In Los Angeles.
ZUSMAN: I lived with them. They didn’t want me to go home [inaudible]. I used to go out, but Ann wasn’t married yet. They used to take me out sometimes.

Goldie:   Didn’t you live at our house for a while?
Barde: With Rushka?
ZUSMAN: When I was divorced? Yes, I lived with [inaudible].

Barde: This was before you went to Los Angeles. You lived with Rosie.
ZUSMAN: Yes. So I stayed there eight months. When I got back, Ben’s sister invited me to her house one time. We were good friends. Eva.

Barde: In Portland? What was her name?
Goldie:   Eva Roth.
ZUSMAN: I think I took you to go there. I didn’t want to go alone. I say, “I’ll take . . ..” Mama says, “Take all these” [laughter].

Barde: Did you drive a car?
ZUSMAN: No, it wasn’t far to go.

Goldie:   They lived in the neighborhood.
ZUSMAN: So I took Goldie with me. She had her brother there, Ben, was there. She introduces me [inaudible]. So he invited me to go to a show with him, and I take you home [or I take you along?] and I went to the show.

Barde: Which show? Where did you go to the show?
ZUSMAN: Downtown, went to the Majestic. I don’t remember the name.

Barde: Do you remember the name of the movie, what kind of movie?
ZUSMAN: No, I don’t remember.

Barde: That was your first date with Uncle Ben.
ZUSMAN: Yes, the first date. I take Goldie [inaudible] and went to the show. Oh, it was funny [laughter]!

Barde: When did you marry him after that, how long after that?
ZUSMAN: Not too long.

Barde: Where did you get married?
ZUSMAN: I got married in June.

Barde: Where?
ZUSMAN: In the synagogue.

Barde: Which one?
ZUSMAN: On Sixth Street.

Barde: Neveh Zedek. Do you remember who the rabbi was?
ZUSMAN: Yes, Rosencrantz.

Goldie:   He lived around the block here.
Barde: Do you have any pictures from the wedding?
Goldie:   Yes, you have an album. Where is your album to hold all the pictures?
ZUSMAN: [Karen?] took it.

Barde: Do you have a picture of Uncle Ben here?
ZUSMAN: Yes, I’ve got a picture.

Goldie:   Why did she take the album?
ZUSMAN: I told her it would get lost. My picture with Ben is there on the table, honey, on the dresser.

Barde: Do you remember what year you married Uncle Ben?
ZUSMAN: We were married 43 years.

Barde: When he died. Oh, look at this [the photo]!
ZUSMAN: Everything’s so dusty [laughs].

Barde: Look how beautiful Aunt Clara is.
Goldie:   She was beautiful.
ZUSMAN: No, that’s not so. Remember when we went in business with Fanny? Remember?

Barde: What business was that?
Goldie:   They had a dress shop.
ZUSMAN: A dress shop.

Barde: We’ll talk about that in a minute. How old were you when you married Uncle Ben?
ZUSMAN: About 35.

Barde: How old was he? Was he older?
ZUSMAN: I think I was two years older [chuckles].

Barde: Where was Uncle Ben born?
ZUSMAN: He comes from England. They lived in England. His folks used to live in Poland, then they moved to England. They lived in England.

Barde: How come they came to Portland?
ZUSMAN: I don’t know.

Barde: You knew his parents. They lived here?
ZUSMAN: They lived here, yes.

Barde: When you met Uncle Ben, what business was he in?
ZUSMAN: He worked with his brother. He was in the restaurant business.

Barde: Where was this?
ZUSMAN: It was on Fourth and Yamhill. He worked with his brother, and I used to work for my sister in the dress shop. Then we opened up a dress shop, Fanny and I.

Goldie:  It was called the Clair-Fan Dress Shop on Morrison Street.
ZUSMAN: Yes, the main street.

Goldie:   Between Broadway and Park.
Barde: Where Nordstrom’s is? Across from Nordstrom’s? Where the restaurant is on the corner?
ZUSMAN: No, where the big jewelry store is.

Goldie:   Carl Greve. It was east of that, closer to Broadway.
Barde: So the dress shop was there. Ready-to-wear or custom made?
ZUSMAN: No, ready-to-wear.

Goldie:   With hats too.
ZUSMAN: We used to go to the  — the [inaudible word] house was across the street. Anything you couldn’t find there, they used to take them up there, and she said you [inaudible].

Barde: How long did you have that business?
ZUSMAN: Not too long.

Barde: What happened?
ZUSMAN: It didn’t work out very good.

Barde: Do you have some memories about that? Some not-so-good memories?
ZUSMAN: No, not so good.

Barde: There were business problems?
ZUSMAN: Business got bad. Fanny, you know . . .

Barde: Hard to work with?
ZUSMAN: Oh, no. She wasn’t hard to work with. She was young, and she didn’t pay too much attention to the business. And Ben didn’t want me to. He wanted to go to Los Angeles to visit. He wanted to go to a wedding. He didn’t want me to stick around, be tied down to it.

Goldie:  I’ll tell you a funny story in relation to that business. At the time, Aunt Mary was getting married to Jerry Greenberg. Mary had addressed and written all her invitations and had them in several piles. She brought them to the store and believed that they should not be mailed all at the same time in the same box because it would be dangerous, they might get lost. So they took out some of them and mailed them and forgot the others under the counter.
Barde: Oh, no! So they stayed in the store.
Goldie:   At the last minute they got mailed.
Barde: Do you remember that story? 
ZUSMAN: No, I don’t remember. 

Barde: Then you sold the store or you just closed it?
ZUSMAN: No, we just gave it up.

Barde: What was Uncle Ben’s brother’s name?
ZUSMAN: Sam.

Barde: And that was the restaurant on Yamhill?
ZUSMAN: Fourth and Yamhill.

Barde: What was that called?
ZUSMAN: I don’t know. All the Jews used to eat there. They used to have Jewish food, and they had [inaudible]. A lot of gentiles liked it, too. They used to eat there.

Barde: How long did that business last?
ZUSMAN: After that, I don’t know. Then when the war broke out, he went to work. He gave that up and he went to work in the shipyards. And I worked. I used to get $50 a week [inaudible]. We worked for [inaudible] and we make money there. So after everything was settled, with the war, he opened up a business on Jefferson.

Barde: Across from Rose’s store.
ZUSMAN: Yes, near where Rosie was, in the building she owned.

Goldie:  It was not across from the original store on Third.
Barde: No, the second store.
Goldie:   Mama was there.
ZUSMAN: [Inaudible] had the store [inaudible] and their own building. We made good there.

Barde: What was the name of that restaurant?
ZUSMAN: I stayed at Molly’s to come to stay with me. I used to stay at the [inaudible]. He used to open up and I used to close. We always worked; I always did something.

Barde: He was a hard worker.
ZUSMAN: Well, I was, too.

Goldie:   He went to work with his brother at the delicatessen on First Street when you kids were little.
Barde: I remember that.
ZUSMAN: That was the last.

Barde: Yes, that was the last. I remember that.
ZUSMAN: Oh, you do!

Goldie:   After Sunday school, I’d take you there and we’d buy cold meats.
Barde: And bagels. I remember it fondly, with the wooden floor. A little bit dark it was always, a little dark in there.
ZUSMAN: Yes, that was the last. We enjoyed that.

Barde: Did he get along with his brother?
ZUSMAN: I don’t know how he did. Sometimes he used to have — I never liked to go there when he was there. He was nice to me, but I didn’t like his looks. He had a [inaudible].

Goldie:  He was a large man.
Barde: Let’s talk about your other brothers and sisters. Are you tired?
ZUSMAN: No.

Barde: OK. Let’s talk about Rushka and Louie. Louie came here from Philadelphia because you were here, and they came right away. A year, maybe? Or a couple of weeks?
ZUSMAN: No, I don’t think a year. Less than that. And Nachman came here, too.

Barde: Oh, he finally came. Then Molly came.
ZUSMAN: After that Molly came and [inaudible]. Then my sister from Argentina was telling — they wrote to us . . .
Barde: Beila.
ZUSMAN: They said, “We got a little money, but if you send us a little more, maybe we can make a trip.”

Barde: To visit? No, come to live here.
ZUSMAN: So we did. We all got together and we sent her $300. We should have sent her the tickets. It would have been better. We sent her the money. What does he do? He takes the money and he opens up a business.

Barde: In Argentina?
ZUSMAN: No, her husband. 

Barde: So they didn’t come. 
ZUSMAN: So they didn’t come. She felt so bad, my sister. She felt terrible, because she wanted to be with the family. Then she got — the living conditions were very bad there, and they had to share a bathroom with another neighbor and a bath with another neighbor. I couldn’t stand that kind of a place! So I made a trip. I wanted to see my sister.

Barde: You went to Argentina?
ZUSMAN: I went to Argentina.

Barde: When was this?
ZUSMAN: It was a long time ago.

Goldie:   Maybe 15 years or more.
Barde: That’s not very long ago.
Goldie:   Before that, though, she was involved in a fire.
ZUSMAN: Yes, she didn’t have a stove. She had a little burner to cook on. She was standing too close to it, and she got everything on fire. There was nobody there. Finally, she got it clear to the neck, and she was in the hospital a whole year, to make . . .

Barde: Skin grafts.
ZUSMAN: Graft skin. I wanted to see her, so I made a trip.

Barde: That was a hard trip.
ZUSMAN: To go there it was kind of hard because I didn’t know the language, Spanish. Then something happened to the plane, and it stopped in a town. I was so depressed, so lonesome. So we stayed overnight and they give me a room as big as this whole house [laughter]. I wrote to Ben, and told him how bad the trip it was, I’m so lonesome and everything. So anyway, they sent up, some people I was in the plane with, to come down and have dinner. I said, “I don’t want dinner. I don’t want anything.” Anyway, in the morning we left. We started out to go to Argentina.

Barde: What city did they live in?
ZUSMAN: Buenos Aires.

Barde: How long were you there?
ZUSMAN: I stayed a week. I wanted to go home.

Barde: It was so bad.
ZUSMAN: It was so bad. So she says, “I’m ashamed for the neighbors. You’ve only been here a week and you want to go back.” I said, “I can’t take it.”

Barde: She was finished with the hospital by then?
ZUSMAN: She was home.

Barde: Was she pleased to see you?
ZUSMAN: But her neck was kind of drawn.

Goldie:   She wore a covering. I saw a picture of her.
ZUSMAN: She wore a high collar.

Barde: Was she pleased to see you?
ZUSMAN: It was drawn a little.

Goldie:   Was she happy to see you?
Barde: Did you speak Yiddish with her?
ZUSMAN: They didn’t have room. I slept with her, and her husband had to sleep with — it was only one room.

Barde: Did you speak Jewish with her?
ZUSMAN: Yes, I speak Jewish. She spoke Spanish.

Barde: Was that the last time you saw her?
ZUSMAN: Yes.

Barde: Let’s go to Molly and Nachman. What business were they in?
ZUSMAN: They were in the bakery business.

Barde: Here in Portland. What was the name of the business?
ZUSMAN: Star Bakery.

Barde: A Jewish bakery?
ZUSMAN: Yes, a Jewish bakery. They made delicious bagels.

Barde: I don’t recall ever that I met Nachman. I remember Aunt Molly but not Nachman.
ZUSMAN: You did meet Molly.

Barde: Of course. She lived here on Broadway.
ZUSMAN: Of course, yes.

Barde: So that was your family. Did anybody ever travel to Israel from here, for visiting?
ZUSMAN: Yes, my nephew went. Louie went, and Irv Rothenberg went. I don’t know, quite a few.

Barde: Let me ask you another question, Auntie Clara. What did you miss the most about Lidvinka when you came here?
ZUSMAN: What did I miss in Russia? Well, I guess my boyfriend. I had a boyfriend, and he was just crazy about me. I liked him a lot. I’ve even got his picture.

Barde: What was his name?
ZUSMAN: Lazer.

Barde: He never came to this country?
ZUSMAN: He wanted to come when we decide to go to this country, so he wanted to go, too. But he had to stand in the army, because otherwise if he wasn’t there, his mother had a home and the Russians would take it away. So he had to stand there and go to the army. But he didn’t go to the army. He tried to escape, and they caught him by the border and they shot him.

Barde: Oh, no!
ZUSMAN: No, he did get to Argentina. He did. From there he got to Argentina, and he used to [inaudible]. And from Argentina he wanted to come here. That’s where they caught him on the border, and they shot him.

Barde: In Argentina?
ZUSMAN: No. Yes. Not in Argentina, in Russia.

Barde: I’m a little confused. He went to Argentina, and who shot him?
ZUSMAN: Well, they found out that he was coming. He didn’t have — by the border.

Barde: In what country?
ZUSMAN: In Russia. I don’t know what border. Anyway, he wanted to come here.

Barde: He wanted to escape Russia.
ZUSMAN: Escape Russia. He stopped in to see his folks, I think, in Russia. And that’s where — and he was going to come here, and that’s where they caught him on the border, in Russia.

Barde: How did you hear the story?
ZUSMAN: Molly was still there in Russia, and his sister was telling Molly what happened, that he didn’t get to come.

Barde: So when Molly came she told you, or she wrote you a letter?
ZUSMAN: No. When she came she was telling me.

Barde: Do you have any of the old letters from that time?
ZUSMAN: No, I haven’t got any. Well, a lot of things I can’t remember.

Goldie:   They didn’t save anything. Life was a struggle, and those keepsakes weren’t important. She just told me while we had the break that when they were in Hamburg waiting to get the boat, her mother bought her a beautiful outfit, a big hat.
Barde: In Germany.
ZUSMAN: Yes, and a beautiful jacket. I was all dressed up. I got myself a job, and I go to work and it started to rain, and everything got spoiled. I used to make three dollars a week, and I had to walk to the east side and back. It was five cents car fare. I couldn’t even spend. The [greenies?] had a very bad time when they came here. It wasn’t easy.

Barde: When did Rushka and Louie buy the house?
Goldie:   We lived on First Street. Both of us where born while we were on First Street. We moved to Second Street and Uncle Dave was born. Uncle Doc, Bobby, had a paper route — not a route, a corner. They didn’t have many routes. They sold them on the corner downtown, and each corner was exclusive to the paperboy. And they saved a lot of money, as much money as they possibly could. Rosie was ready to buy a house for a big family. Her parents were here, too. She wanted them to have a home. So she got Uncle Doc to give her the money for the down payment, which was very small, maybe $500 or something.
ZUSMAN: Who is that?
Goldie:   The house. Mama bought the house. And she never forgot that as long as she lived. She felt forever indebted.
ZUSMAN: I give my sister, she had a mortgage on the house. I had money. She says, “Clara, why don’t you loan me $3,000 so I can pay off the mortgage?” Of course, she paid too much interest. She said, “You don’t get so much in a day.” So I give it to her. I didn’t take any write-up or anything from her. My sister, I loved her. I gave her the money, and whenever she had, she paid me back.
Goldie:   She was very, very conscientious about debt.

Barde: What about this house?
Goldie:   Later. First you bought the house for Baba and Beila next door. Then she decided to start spreading out on this block. She bought this house. Then she bought two duplexes, two flats, at the corner of . . .
ZUSMAN: I lived between Sixth and Broadway on Harrison. I had a big house. But then the school took it away, so I moved to an apartment right there at the end of . . .

Barde: Here, yes.
ZUSMAN: Yes. Mother said it was such a shack here. And a woman lived here. So she said, “I’ll fix it up and you move in.” I didn’t want to [inaudible] them here, either, because we have a garage there and we didn’t pay too much rent over there. So she started begging me to fix it up real nice. 

Goldie: Very persuasive.
ZUSMAN: So I moved in, and I enjoyed it. Everything was fine. Mary, she used to come in here. I used to go there. I loved her. She loved me, too. We got along fine. When she passed away, she left a will . . . 

Barde: Rushka?
ZUSMAN: So the kids shouldn’t raise me the rent. But I raised it myself. The family started complaining, the taxes and this and that.

Goldie:   Anyway, you lived in the Josephine Apartments right near here on Jackson Street, in a studio apartment with Ben, right down here on Jackson Street.
ZUSMAN: That was when I was just married to Ben.
Goldie:   Then you moved to Harrison Street. You had a house on Harrison near Sixth, near the French bakery.
ZUSMAN: When we bought the house, yes.

Barde: How long did you live in this house before Uncle Ben passed away?
ZUSMAN: Here? I don’t know, about 16 years or more. Ben has been dead about 12 years or more.

Barde: Are there any other sisters and brothers still alive?
ZUSMAN: No, I’m the only one.

Barde: The only one. Beila died.
ZUSMAN: Everybody except my nephew in Los Angeles. 

Barde: Harry.
ZUSMAN: He always sends me a New Year’s card.

Goldie:   What about [Carlos Brofman?]? Isn’t he still okay?
ZUSMAN: Albert used to send me a card and a picture. He has a little girl.

Goldie:   I remember Albert. Albert was Carlos’s brother’s son. He was your age, approximately. Do you remember when Carlos built a divider for us on our patio on our house on Clifton Street? He was a super craftsman.
Barde: No, I don’t.
Goldie:   It was a planter. We put shrubs in it. Albert was his son, and then they had Estella and another girl.
ZUSMAN: I used to have — you were such a good eater. When she used to have to go someplace she used to bring you to the house, when I lived on Harrison.

Barde: Now I remember. It was a white house, had a big porch? Of course I remember that, by the University.
Goldie:   I used to bring Larry there a lot.
ZUSMAN: You used to bring him. I used to love Larry. I’d say, “Oh, it’s wonderful. Bring him. He’s so good.” He liked to monkey around there in the kitchen, at home he used to.
 
Barde: Is there anything you want to tell me about that you haven’t told us about? You said you’ve had some disappointments in your life, some upsets? What kind of troubles do you think you’ve had?
ZUSMAN: In life you go through a lot of different things. You try to forget it.

Goldie:   The struggle coming over on board the boat in steerage, where they were sick most of the trip, that was a struggle, wasn’t it?
Barde: She was young.
Goldie:   Then when you divorced Dave.
Barde: Was that a hard time for you?
ZUSMAN: It was. It was hard to live with Rushka.

Goldie:   Not having your own home.
ZUSMAN: Not to have my own. We had our own home, a beautiful home, a new home we built ourselves, and new furniture and everything. I had a piano. I used to take piano lessons. I already played a waltz. And all of a sudden nothing, and I had to live [inaudible] first. Then Mother said it was no good there, and so she says, “Come and live with me. You’ll have your room; you’ll feel better.” It wasn’t good there, either. But then when I married Ben, everything was settled.

Barde: I think that’s all I have. Do you have anything you think we should add?
Goldie:   I used to spend some time with Aunt Clara when I was little. She would take me to her house.
ZUSMAN: I used to take her to the house. One time Dave comes home. I called him up to bring milk, whatever I needed, and he got jealous when he saw her. He takes the bottle of milk, he brings it in, but he throws it in the kitchen, and he got the milk all over. I just cleaned up. The kitchen was spotless. She says, “I don’t like your papa. Why don’t you buy one at Meier & Frank?” [laughter]. I cried. I held her in my arms. I loved her.

Barde: Where was this house?
Goldie:   Irvington, on Tenth.
ZUSMAN: I lived in Irvington on Tenth and Siskiyou. She says, “Why don’t you go to Meier & Frank and buy a nice papa?” 

Goldie:   You could get anything at Meier & Frank.
ZUSMAN: It was so cute!

Barde: Auntie Clara, thank you very much.
ZUSMAN: Honey, it was so nice to see you. You stay well with your family, your mother and father. All of you stay well and have a happy new year.

Barde: Thank you. You too.