Shirley Berenson Fromer Mark

Frankel: I will ask you to begin by stating your full name and place of birth.
MARK: My name is Shirley Mark and I was born in Portland, Oregon, July 4, 1923.

Frankel: Can you tell me something about your family? Who lived in your household?
MARK: I was born eleven years after my next youngest brother. My mother had three boys and then she had me eleven years later. I was undoubtedly a mistake. I remember my youngest brother living at home when he was in high school, but the others I don’t remember. The middle brother, Bernard, became a doctor and when he was in medical school he lived at home. I remember that. He had a room up in the attic and he studied up there. 

Frankel: What are the names of your parents?
MARK: Max Berenson and Florence Berenson. My father was born in Poland. I have the name of the city in the other room. And my mother was born in Rovna, Russia. My mother’s parents came here. My grandmother and her sisters came here. The whole family came here. Portland was their destination when they left Russia, which was unusual in those days. They came into Boston not New York. They came across the United States and they all settled here. There was somebody here already and I don’t know who it was. It was a relative. That is why they came. They had some relatives in Boston, but I have no idea who they are. They were distant cousins or something. So our whole family is here.

Frankel: So how many siblings were there?
MARK: In my mother’s family? She had two sisters and two brothers. My mother was the oldest; Bessie Schatz and Betty Packouz were her sisters. And Nate Casler and Dave Casler. The reason their name was Casler was that my mother was the first one to go to school, Failing School. The teacher wrote down Kessler and Casler and a “C” was easier to make than a “K,” so that part of the family is Casler. 

Frankel: Where did they settle when the first arrived in Portland?
MARK: I guess in South Portland. I don’t know. That is where everyone lived in those days.

Frankel: When you said she was the first one to go to school . . .
MARK: Well she was the oldest. She only went until about the fourth grade and then she went to work after she came here. She worked in Russia, too. She worked in a candy factory, she told me.

Frankel: How old was she when she arrived here?
MARK: Let’s see, she was 19 [when she married], so I guess she was about 16 when she came. I know she worked in an overall factory. My grandfather, in Russia, had been a cabinet maker and somehow he ended up with a little grocery store on First Street, right where the Labor Temple is now.

Frankel: What was the name of the grocery store?
MARK: Oh, I don’t remember. I have no idea.

Frankel: Soon after she went to work she got married?
MARK: Yes, and I don’t think she ever worked after she got married. She had my oldest brother about eleven months later.

Frankel: What was it like growing up in your mother and father’s household? What kind of religious life did you have?
MARK: Very. Extremely religious – religion and patriotism. Serving the community was number one in my mother’s life. She went to synagogue every Saturday, rain or shine. When they moved the synagogue so she couldn’t walk there, we made arrangements for her to take a cab and not to have to sign for it. The rabbi said, “If you go to shul and don’t do anything else, it will be OK.” She kept a very, very kosher house.

Frankel: What about your father? Did he go to synagogue too?
MARK: No, he wasn’t as religious. I think he cheated and ate traif once in a while, too. [laughs]

Frankel: What synagogue did they attend?
MARK: They went to Neveh Zedek. Then, when they merged, they went to Neveh Shalom.

Frankel: Where did you grow up?
MARK: On Southwest 15th and Harrison, which was not “deep” South Portland. It was sort of in-between in those days. It was a lovely house. It doesn’t look like much from the outside, but it was built by a contractor for himself and it has magnificent floors and there are maid bells all over the house, which of course were never used. And it has a sliding panel to hide valuables. It was a beautiful house. It is still there.

Frankel: What are your earliest memories growing up?
MARK: I remember my brothers playing with me. I remember my mother schlepping me to meetings all the time. In those days you didn’t have babysitters. Of course I hated it.

Frankel: What meetings?
MARK: She was president of Neveh Zedek’s Sisterhood for years. I don’t know. It must have been in the ‘20s and early ‘30s, but I don’t know the exact dates. We didn’t have many neighbors with kids on my street. I was jealous of the ones that lived in really deep South Portland because they had all these friends to play with, and I was sort of up there away from everything.

Frankel: So, in terms of status, was it a higher status to live outside of “deep” South Portland?
MARK: Well, I don’t know. I really don’t. Before they moved to that house, right after the First World War, before I was born, they lived on Fifth and College. Then they sold the house to the Mayo family and they moved up there.

Frankel: What are the names of your brothers?
MARK: Milton, Bernard, and Norman Berenson. They are all deceased.

Frankel: When you say that your mother was deeply religious, can you describe some of the Friday nights and holidays?
MARK: Well, she benched licht [lit candles]. She made challah every Friday. She was a wonderful cook. I think my first husband married me because of her cooking. He thought I would follow in her footsteps, but I didn’t. As I said, she went to shul every Shabbos.

Frankel: Did she take the kids with her?
MARK: The kids? Well, they weren’t there. She took me, of course. She took me wherever she went. I was very, very spoiled, because I was the first girl and after all of those years.

Frankel: What are your memories of sitting in shul?
MARK: Not too much. Being bored. [laughs]

Frankel: Were there many kids there?
MARK: No, I really don’t remember. You know on Shabbos, not that many people went to shul and none of them were kids. The only time that kids went was during the holidays.

Frankel: Who was the rabbi there?
MARK: I remember Rabbi Kleinman, and of course I remember vividly Cantor Rosencrantz. There had to be somebody before Kleinman, but I don’t remember. There was a Rabbi Rubin, I think. Does that sound familiar to you?

Frankel: Rosencrantz, yes.
MARK: Well, he was the cantor. That is Ardyth Shapiro’s grandfather.

Frankel: You said that they were sponsored by relatives. Do you remember . . .
MARK: They weren’t sponsored. They came here because there was a relative here.

Frankel: Who were the relatives? Were you in touch with them?
MARK: No. I don’t know who the first one was. My grandmother had three sisters and they all came here. Why the person before them came, I have no idea, and I don’t even know who that was.

Frankel: So you did have an extended family here.
MARK: Yes. We had a large family. 

Frankel: Did you live close to them?
MARK: No, but my father had a car. He always had a car, I guess. I don’t remember him ever not having one. He would always drive us. In 1929, they bought a new car and my mother, being so active, decided that she should drive. She took driving lessons. She went to show him how well she drove. The only time in his life that he hit her; he hit her arm because she made a mistake and she said, “If that is what this leads to, forget it.” She never touched the wheel again.

Frankel: You mentioned earlier the story about the mikvah.
MARK: I used to be on Front Street. Then I think it moved to Third. My mother went to the mikvah every month. I didn’t know why, but now I now. She slept with me a week every month and I didn’t know why. [laughs] Is this what you want to hear?

Frankel: Yes. What language was spoken at home?
MARK: They spoke English. They spoke Yiddish, and when they didn’t want me to understand, they spoke Russian.

Frankel: Again, the mikvah, when it moved to Harrison street, you had that story.
MARK: That was after I was married. When they moved the mikvah from Third Street to Harrison Street, a neighbor came to my mother and said, “Mrs. Berenson, we are getting a petition up. We don’t want a Jewish bath house on our street because there will be too much traffic.” And my mother said, “Don’t worry. It will be the quietest house on the street,” which it is. Do you want to know about my grandmother’s sisters? There was Mrs. Heckman, Mrs. Lenchner and Mrs. Boxer. They were her sisters.

Frankel: Now you said your mother was very active. She was president of the Sisterhood. What other organizations?
MARK: She was president of the Robison Home for seven years. She was president when they built and moved out to their present location. I don’t know what offices she has held in Hadassah, but I know that she was a permanent member of their board. Toward the end she was an honorary member of the board. At the time they built the Home out here they had a choice of buying the property where the Ione Plaza is now or moving out to the Westside, to Raleigh Hills. Well my mother was very much opposed to their moving out here, but somebody donated that land to them and they thought they should take advantage of it rather than spending the money. She said they shouldn’t go out there, that nobody would ever visit the people out there. Well that was a big mistake; she was wrong. And she admitted it. She was president when they built out here.

Frankel: What kind of education did she have?
MARK: She only went to the fourth grade.

Frankel: Even though she was already 16, she started . . .
MARK: Yes, she started. They used to go to the grocery store (I am sure you have heard this story before) and they would pick out food by looking at the pictures on the can. Because nobody could read English.

Frankel: Were your grandparents literate?
MARK: I don’t know. Maybe my grandfather was but I doubt if my grandmother was. I don’t know.

Frankel: Did they learn English?
MARK: Oh, yes.

Frankel: Did you have a close relationship with your extended family?
MARK: I remember we used to go to the store all the time and visit and be with them. Yes. But I don’t remember ever having a holiday dinner at my grandmother’s house.

Frankel: Did they come to you?
MARK: I think for Pesach they did. I remember them being there. I was ten when my grandfather died, so it is very vague to me.

Frankel: What kind of Jewish education did you receive?
MARK: I went to Sunday School. I was confirmed. I think I went after I was confirmed for a little while. I went to Hebrew School for maybe six months. But I can still read Hebrew.

Frankel: So Sunday School and Hebrew School were two separate things.
MARK: Yes. The Hebrew School was at the Neighborhood House in those days, which was quite a ways for me to walk.

Frankel: Were those classes for boys and girls together?
MARK: I think they were. I don’t remember.

Frankel: Do you recall the teachers?
MARK: There was one I remember. His name was Mr. Aguff. I thought that was such a funny name. [It] is the only one I remember.

Frankel: Do you remember the various groups? The Sephardic Jews, and the German Jews . . .?
MARK: I felt no difference at all. Not at all. I know in Seattle there was quite a rift. When I went to college, I couldn’t believe how they felt about the Sephardic Jews, because we never felt that in Portland. My mother felt that the Germans, of course, were very snobbish.

Frankel: Were the German Jewish kids in your classes at school? Did they live in the neighborhood with you?
MARK: Most of the German Jewish kids lived in the Heights. At Lincoln High School there was a real cross-section. We had the poorest people in Portland, and the richest people in Portland. The only thing is we did not have any Blacks at that time. But other than that, it was a real cross-section. There were lots of Orientals. We had the first Oriental student body president in the United States. 

Frankel: What year was that?
MARK: It had to have been before 1939.

Frankel: Can you tell me something about your parents’ wedding?
MARK: I never heard anything about their wedding. I assume they were married in shul. I guess Rabbi Fain probably married them.

Frankel: Before high school, what school did you attend?
MARK: Shattuck School, where Portland State is now.

Frankel: Was that first through eighth grade?
MARK: Yes, and then Lincoln High School.

Frankel: Did you have good experiences? Did you encounter any antisemitism growing up?
MARK: No, never antisemitism. I remember I used to play with a girl named Virginia Ryan. We were the only two girls on our street. I used to play with her. She was much stronger than me. One day she called me a “dirty Jew” and I beat her up.” [laughs] But no, I never felt any antisemitism at all.

Frankel: Can you describe South Portland?
MARK: Well, we weren’t really there.

Frankel: Wouldn’t you shop in that neighborhood?
MARK: My parents went there. They went to my grandfather’s store and to our cousin Nate Rosen’s store, Jack Rosen’s father’s store.

Frankel: What store was that?
MARK: It was also a grocery store. And they would go to the butcher shop, Mr. Brill’s, and to Mosler’s Bakery. 

Frankel: What was your father’s business?
MARK: We were in the hardware business. I think he started out selling bottles. I think he found old bottles and sold them. I don’t know what they would have used them for. I can tell you a little bit about my father, not too much. He was born in Poland and he was in the Russian Army. Somehow he came to America (I don’t know how). And he was living in New York. He had been there for a couple of years, and he met a young lady at a party on the Lower East Side. They were visiting and she said, “Do you have relatives here?” And he said, “Yes I have relatives in a place called Portland, Oregon. That is the only person I know.” It turned out that she was engaged to his cousin, and he talked my father into taking her across country. She was afraid to go by herself. That was how he ended up in Portland. I thought that was an interesting story. That was Danny Davis’ mother and father. My father’s oldest sister had two sons and a daughter, and the two sons came to America. I do not know who paid their passage, but when they came they lived in our house, way before I was born. In the early 1900s. That was Sam Zidell and Charlie Zidell.

Frankel: And their mother?
MARK: No, she didn’t come. She was in Russia. I think she was killed by the Nazis because her name is on the Holocaust list. Sam and my father were pretty much the same age. She was the oldest sister of their parents. My father and Sam Zidell were partners in a second-hand and hardware store. Sam was willing to take chances and maybe do a few little things my father didn’t approve of so they broke up the partnership, and, of course, Sam became very, very wealthy. But my father was a very happy man. I remember during the Depression, my father would come home and my mother would ask, “Did you sell $100 worth today?” If he did, it was a big day.

Frankel: That was at the hardware store.
MARK: That was the hardware store on Front and Main. They sold new and second-hand. There were a lot of little hardware stores on Front Street in those days. The PGE building is where there store was. 

Frankel: Did you ever help out in the store?
MARK: No, my brothers did and my cousins. But I never really had to work there. I never felt poor. Even during the Depression, I never felt poor, and if anyone ever came to our door – [since] we lived fairly close to downtown, we had a lot of beggars) – they never went away empty handed. They always had something to eat when they came to our door. My mother made most of my clothes.

Frankel: When did you first hear about what was going on with the Jews of Europe?
MARK: I just don’t remember.

Frankel: Did your mother or father still have relatives there?
MARK: The only reason I knew about this sister was when I saw her name at the Holocaust [memorial]. That was Sam Zidell’s mother. 

Frankel: Do you remember receiving letters from Europe?
MARK: No. I do remember that my parents used to receive letters from some relative in Israel. But I don’t know who it was.

Frankel: Was that before the war?
MARK: Yes. I think there was somebody in Argentina too, but I don’t know who. I think that was on my mother’s side.

Frankel: Was your family Zionist?
MARK: Oh, yes, Hadassah! Very much so. My mother went to Israel by herself when she was about 72 years old. She went all by herself. Then she went around Europe by herself. Brave woman. She kept kosher. She said, “I can always find something to eat.”

Frankel: So she remained observant of kosher laws all her life?
MARK: Yes. She had a portable set to light candles with no matter where she was. She was very religious. During the holidays, Rabbi and Lisl Geller would have her stay at their house because she would not ride on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. That was the only time that she would not ride. 

Frankel: Was your father as involved in the community as she was?
MARK: No, he worked. But whenever she wanted money for some cause, he gave. And whenever anyone would ask her for money, she would send it. I told her half of them are crooked, but she said, “If one person needs it, I don’t want to leave them out.” She was very charitable and gave up things of her own so she could give to others.

Frankel: When you said she traveled to Israel, was that with an organized group?
MARK: No, she went all by herself. I don’t know who made the arrangements. She came back on the Queen Mary. She flew over. She was very religious. She said, “God will take care of me.”

Frankel: Did any of your siblings remain observant?
MARK: No, not at all.

Frankel: Did you have a bat mitzvah?
MARK: No, they didn’t have them in those days.

Frankel: Do you remember your brothers’?
MARK: No, the youngest was eleven when I was born. He was bar mitzvahed when I was two years old.

Frankel: After high school what did you do?
MARK: I want to talk about my mother.

Frankel: All right. What aspect would you like to talk about?
MARK: During the Second World War she was very patriotic. Very. Extremely patriotic. She loved America. She said she would kill herself before she would leave this country. She sold more war bonds as an individual than anyone in the state of Oregon. I am sure the people that she sold them to were not that interested in buying them, but because it was Mrs. Berenson, they would buy bonds from her. Every Thanksgiving someone sponsored a service at the Civic Auditorium, and she would walk down there before dinner to go to those services and give thanks for America.

Frankel: How did she become so involved?
MARK: She was involved from the day I remember. 

Frankel: Did you have meetings at your house?
MARK: No.

Frankel: Do you recall when the State of Israel became independent?
MARK: Yes, I do. I was active in Hadassah at that time. I was a vice president very young, before the age of thirty. So I remember that.

Frankel: How did Zionism manifest itself with your parents?
MARK: They didn’t talk about it too much but I know that they were very much for the state of Israel. I remember before Israel became a state, and I was so active in Hadassah and my mother was a little bit at that time, because she was older. Someone said, “Oh, Hadassah will dissolve after Israel becomes a state because they will have reached their goal.” Well, they are still going and they are still doing a lot of good work.

Frankel: What other stories do you remember about your mother?
MARK: She was a wonderful cook, as I said before, and very talented at needlework. This chair and I have something else I will show you before you go. Her hands were never idle. She did read and write. When I was six years old, I remember she was reading the book, The Bridge of San Luis Rey, which I still have on my bookshelf as a memory of her. She was very proud that she could read and write because a lot of people of that generation did not. She listened to the radio for the news. I don’t remember them discussing anything much. My father was very, very quiet. We had a happy home life. In the summer they drove to Will_____ Springs – which was out near Molalla. I don’t know if it is still there or not – to drink the mineral water.

Frankel: Can you tell me more about the Jewish institutions you knew growing up?
MARK: We lived near the Center, just three blocks away. 

Frankel: What was the function of the Center then? What happened there?
MARK: I took swimming lessons from Mickey. In fact, when Mickey Hirschberg retired, they had my mother, myself and my daughter on television as three generations that had swum with Mickey. My mother was a wonderful swimmer. When we would go to the beach, she used to swim way out beyond the breakers. I had never seen anyone else do that. She was a very strong swimmer and she was athletic. She loved to play volleyball. She would go to the Center and exercise and walk downtown. She never took the streetcar. She always walked. She said, “God gives you one body and you have to keep it good.”

Frankel: So you know the Jewish Community Center and Neighborhood House.
MARK: Neighborhood House didn’t figure into our lives at all except for Hebrew School. My grandmother lived just a block away but I don’t remember ever being there except for that. I think my mother took her citizenship lessons there. She never missed an election.

Frankel: What about B’nai B’rith?
MARK: The Center was their building. They were members. My father belonged to the men’s and my mother – I think my mother belonged to everything. She was active in the Council of Jewish Women. Have you heard of the Opportunity Bake Shop?

Frankel: No.
MARK: During the Depression, on 12th and Mill, they had a little building. I think it was Hadassah that ran it. They used to bake there and people would come and buy baked goods there, and they would use the money to support the organization. It was short-lived.

Frankel: What about the Yom Kippur Ball?
MARK: That dance you mean? We used to call it the “Six to Sixty,” because every age used to go there. [laughs] I don’t really remember much about it, though.
Frankel: Did every synagogue have it’s own?
MARK: I don’t know that either. It seems to me that it was at the Neighbors of Woodcraft. 

Frankel: What about the Ramblers Club?
MARK: My first husband was very active in that after the war. Of course, during the war I was away at school. When I got married, all of our friends belonged to the Ramblers.

Frankel: What was the function of the club?
MARK: It was social. And they did Good Works. They maintained a blood bank that could be used for anybody. They used to have big blood drives. I think it was mostly social, though. They met on Monday nights at the Center.

Frankel: People from across synagogues, all denominations would come?
MARK: Yes.

Frankel: And men and women?
MARK: No, just men. Women were included in the social affairs.

Frankel: Who were the leaders in the Jewish community when you were growing up?
MARK: I don’t know if they were wealthy or not, but I remember the name Shemanski, and Roscoe Nelson. I don’t remember others now.

Frankel: In what other ways was your mother involved in the community?
MARK: What she did kept her pretty busy. For the Home they had teas and luncheons, and all kinds of fund raising things. She was always on the phone talking to people on the board. As far as her activities at Neveh Zedek, when she was president there I was such a little girl that I don’t remember what she did other than take me to the meetings with her. 

Frankel: Did she tell you about her activities?
MARK: No, I guess I just absorbed it through osmosis. She really didn’t talk about it too much.

Frankel: Then you went off to college. Was it common for women to go to college at that time?
MARK: It was just assumed that I would go to college. We all went to college except for my youngest brother Norman, and that was during the Depression. I don’t know if they couldn’t afford it or if he didn’t want to go. He went to San Francisco and worked and then he came back to Portland and worked with my father in the hardware store.

Frankel: Were any of your brothers drafted during the war?
MARK: No. No one has ever been in the service in my family. They were too old at the time.

Frankel: What school did you attend?
MARK: The University of Washington. I went to Reed for one year and then I went back to graduate from the University of Washington. I was supposed to be a social worker. I would have been a terrible social worker because I don’t have that much patience. But I got married before I graduated. 

Frankel: Can you describe how you got engaged and married?
MARK: I want to talk about my mother.

Frankel: That’s fine. Guide me in the direction you would like to talk about her.
MARK: Someone called me up a couple years ago; she was at a committee meeting or a board meeting and they were arguing about some unimportant thing. One woman got up and said, “If Flora Berenson were here this would have been decided a long time ago. Just think like she would think.” She was very strong and a good leader. I got a kick out of that phone call. She was very respected. In fact, Lou, my present husband has heard so many times, “Oh, if you had only known Shirley’s mother.” Of course the people who knew her are dying now and pretty soon there won’t be anyone left that knew her, which is a shame. 

Frankel: What image of your mother stands in your mind most vividly?
MARK: Being on the phone I think. Being in the kitchen working.

Frankel: Did you resent the fact that your mother was so busy with other things?
MARK: No, I resented, sometimes that I wanted some attention. I was the only one in the house and she didn’t want to give me the attention I wanted. I was very spoiled, as I said. 

Frankel: Were you influenced by your mother?
MARK: Yes, because I became very active immediately when I got married. I think I blew myself out young. I got active too early and I am not a very patient person. I don’t like women’s board meetings because they fight over such unimportant things. I was on the board of Jewish Family and Child Services with women and men and the board of the Robison Home with women and men. I am a life-member of everything, but I am not active in anything now because I am older. I resigned from the Home board when we bought in Palm Springs. 

Frankel: Did your mother support you in everything that you did? Did she say, “You will go to college school after high school?”
MARK: It was just assumed that I was going to go.

Frankel: Thinking back on your classmates, did all the girls who graduated with you go to college?
MARK: No. But that was just how we were. My mother would say, “Oh, if I only had gotten an education.” She could have done so much more.

Frankel: Did she take classes?
MARK: Not that I remember. We had one relative (I won’t mention any names) who was a college graduate about whom my mother used to say, “Oh, what a waste of a college education.” But she did very well without an education.

Frankel: And you mentioned that she read. 
MARK: Yes, she did. I remember The Bridge of San Luis Rey. Our house was not big, but we had some extra rooms up in the attic. She always had a roomer living in the house. She wouldn’t let that space go to waste. She rented it out. I don’t remember any Jewish people ever living there.  They just rented. They didn’t eat with us. I remember one woman, a girl. She was supposed to be engaged to this fellow. He kept borrowing money from her (she was a waitress) for “one more deal, one more deal.” Well, he ran off and married someone else and Hazel was going to commit suicide and my mother found out. She gave a big luncheon with all of her (my mother’s) Jewish friends that Hazel didn’t care about. Hazel’s picture was on the front page of the society section that day. My mother knew someone at the paper. It said, “A Big Luncheon given for Hazel Haines who is moving to Hollywood.” And she moved to California and my mother really saved her life. She married and, of course, they stayed in touch forever. That was a good note.

Frankel: Did she attend lectures? Do you remember anyone coming to your house?
MARK: Anyone of importance? No, I really don’t remember. There was one man from Iran (it had to have been after the war). He wanted a kosher meal for some reason and they asked my mother if she would have him for a guest. I remember him saying that the Jews there had more than one wife. I was so shocked to hear that that it is the only thing I remember. The family went to the movies every Sunday, to the matinee.

Frankel: You and your parents?
MARK: That’s right.

Frankel: Can you describe a Saturday in your house growing up?
MARK: On Friday night we would have dinner, chicken soup, gefilte fish, challah, bensch licht. And Shabbos we would go to shul. My father didn’t go. Then we would come home, and she would do nothing. You are not supposed to do anything on Shabbos. So she would read. 

Frankel: And what did you do?
MARK: Probably nagged her to go play. [laughs]

Frankel: Were there youth groups when you were growing up?
MARK: I didn’t belong to any. I don’t remember any.

Frankel: Did you have cousins your age?
MARK: Yes, Howard Schatz was about my age and Ray and Harriet Packouz were my age. I am still close to Ray.

Frankel: Did you get together or play together?
MARK: No, because we didn’t live near each other. The Packouzes lived on the Eastside. We saw each other when the parents would come to visit. 

Frankel: So what was considered entertainment?
MARK: I used to like to play board games. My parents played bridge. I remember they each put in 15 cents and whoever won collected it. But they didn’t play poker, and they weren’t big drinkers. They weren’t “high livers.” Going out to eat in a restaurant was unheard of. They didn’t know that people do that for social reasons like we do now. If they went to eat somewhere it was for a banquet for charity. They didn’t just go eat in a restaurant.

Frankel: Could it have been because she kept kosher.
MARK: That had a lot to do with it. She would go to Rose’s and have a piece of cheesecake there. I remember once we were going to Nendel’s [a hotel and restaurant out on Canyon Road], and I called ahead and told them to be sure that they wrapped her salmon in foil and to put a baked potato in foil. Well it came and everything was wrapped in foil, her plates and everything! She was so embarrassed. [laughs] It was different in those days. There was one girl in our sorority house whose mother called her every Friday. I was so jealous because my mother didn’t call me. I told the girl and she said, “Well my mother can’t write. She has to call.”

Frankel: Did she stay in that house on Harrison?
MARK: One of her prayers was, “I should never have to live with my children. I don’t want to be a burden to my children.” She stayed in that house and she was sick the last five years of her life. Not bedridden, but sick. The last two or three years she was really quite sick. I was lucky to get a housekeeper through Jewish Family and Child Services, and I told the woman when I hired her, “When you have to leave, give me notice because I have to make arrangements for my mother.” She called and told me, “I can’t do it anymore.” Then, of course, mother went to the Home and she was only there three weeks and she died. 

Frankel: And your father?
MARK: My father died at home. He had a stroke in 1955. He was 78. My mother was 88 when she died in 1976, of cancer. She lived a wonderful life.

Frankel: Did she remain active?
MARK: Not the last few years; she couldn’t. But she was always active. She was always going to meetings.

Frankel: Did she ever keep a diary?
MARK: No. 

Frankel: Was she close to her grandchildren? Did they live in the area? Did they come visit?
MARK: Yes, she came to them. We would have her over for all the holidays. I remember one Thanksgiving I had her and then I had a couple who were vegetarians and she was kosher. Anyway, we satisfied everyone. [laughs] I used to change dishes at Pesach because of her, but I don’t do that anymore.

Frankel: Did she try to educate or make sure that her children and grandchildren would be religious?
MARK: No, I don’t think she tried to influence them at all.

Frankel: And did she continue to go to services?
MARK: Yes. As long as she could. When she was sick in the hospital, I remember Lisl Geller kept bringing food to her. She didn’t want to eat the hospital food that wasn’t kosher.

Frankel: Did she ever talk about the change in the synagogue where women became more active?
MARK: Women and men always sat together at Neveh Zedek so that was not a problem. One thing I remember was the kosher butcher shop really became terrible. It was quite dirty. Once she said to me, “If I were younger I think I would start using traif meat because it looks to good.” But she never did. She was in the hospital and they closed the little kosher butcher shop in Hillsdale. I didn’t want to tell her. I thought it would upset her. Bessie Rosenbaum, the doctor’s mother, came to see her and said, “Flora, isn’t it terrible? They closed the butcher shop.” And she said, “Thank God.” I said, “Mom, how can you say that?” She said, “Don’t worry. They’ll take care of us.” And they did.

Frankel: Who were her close friends?
MARK: As she got older her friends had died away. There was Anne Shapiro who was Dr. Brill’s sister, and her sisters. It was “family, family, family.”

Frankel: Were her sisters as involved in the community as she was?
MARK: No. Not at all.

Frankel: Did any of them work outside the house?
MARK: No. Bessie Schatz lived on Sixth and College, and she had some flats there that she used to manage during the Depression. Her sister Nettie sold cosmetics during the Depression. She went house to house and gave people facials and sold cosmetics. They struggled.

Frankel: What made your mother decide to take a trip to Israel?
MARK: She wanted to see it.

Frankel: Had it been a dream of hers?
MARK: It was something she had wanted to do forever. She got along very well on her trip except in France. She wasn’t comfortable because they didn’t speak English. So she cut short her stay in Paris and went to England.

Frankel: Did she and your father ever travel?
MARK: They used to go to hot springs and things like that. I think they went to San Francisco for some reason. He didn’t like to travel. He was very much a homebody. He liked to stay home and work in the yard. And he worked until he passed away. My husband used to take him to the store and he would sit there. They always called him “Boss,” even when he couldn’t do very much. He never spent a day of his life in the hospital.

Frankel: Who took over the store after your father died?
MARK: My brother and my husband. 

Frankel: Is it still there?
MARK: No, it became wholesale and then we sold it in 1982. It is not in existence anymore.

Frankel: Did your mother ever talk about the old country?
MARK: Hated it! Hated it! “I don’t want to talk about it. I hated it.” She didn’t like it at all. My father didn’t talk about it at all either. I bet you have heard all kinds of stories.

Frankel: Some, and I have some memories. Any other aspects about your mother you want to talk about?
MARK: I’m trying to think. After you leave I will think of a lot of things. I know that, when they remodeled the old Jewish Community Center, they paid for the remodeling of the steam room. They did things like that to support the community. They gave to the Community Chest.

Frankel: What was the Community Chest?
MARK: That was like the United Way. After Rabbi Stampfer moved from next door [to us] on Harrison Street . . . I have to tell you something funny. They could see into our house from their kitchen, so my mother made my father wear a yarmulke whenever he ate dinner. [laughs] I thought that was funny. Anyway, when the house was sold, a fraternity house bought the property (Kappa Sigma). The boys were wonderful to my mother. And not only were they wonderful, they were smart. Whenever they were going to have a party, they would invite my mother. She would never, ever go but she knew that it was going to be noisy and she shouldn’t worry. And whenever she had anything in the house that needed repairing or anything to be done, she would call the Kappa Sigmas. She had their phone number. She would say, “Please send me over a boy.” Of course, they had a big turnover. Every year they had different boys there but every time they would say, “What do you need done, Mrs. Berenson?” Someone would come over and take care of it. Unfortunately, in 1966, someone broke into my mother’s house and attacked her and raped her. There was someone going around the neighborhood attacking old women who lived alone. He got in. She had no idea how he got in. He never said a word. She offered him money, jewelry, anything he wanted. He left her there, and we were called immediately by the police. She was in the hospital. As I told you, she was a very strong woman. Some of those women were never able to go home again. None of them died but they had to go to nursing homes. We took her in for a few days. Then we had a burglar alarm put in. That is what reminded me about the boys. Being an older lady she would set the alarm off by mistake. Every time that alarm went off, the boys would run over to save Mrs. Berenson. They were the most wonderful neighbors. And she was a good neighbor to them. She would bake and give them cookies and stuff. It was a difference of generations but it was good. When she died, many of them came to her funeral. I will tell you a funny story about the rape. She was the only one – they had questioned and questioned her and she said a young man had come to sell her magazines. That is how he cased the place. She told him, “I live alone and there is nobody here to read them. I have enough to read.” Well, that was the man. So they caught him. We had to go to the line-up. I went to the line-up with her. They said, “Mrs. Berenson, do you see the man who tried to sell you the magazines?” “Yes, he is the first one.” I could just see the detectives faces fall because it was not him. “Mrs. Berenson, which one?” “The first one.” “Point to him.” She was reading Hebrew, so the first one was the one on the right. He was convicted and we don’t know what happened to him. It was a sad story but it was a funny ending. 

My mother always said that on her tombstone they should put, “Gone to another meeting.”

[NOTE: There is no audio for this interview]

Temkin: I am here with Shirley Mark. This is a continuation of an interview that was done a few years ago with Shirley in which she talked about her mother. The Oregon Jewish Museum wants to know more about you. I read the interview and the last thing they asked you about was that you went to Reed and the University of Washington but it wasn’t clear if you finished.
MARK: Yes, I graduated from Washington. I went to Reed for my junior year and then I went back to Washington and graduated.

Temkin: What did you get a degree in?
MARK: Social Work. I would have been a terrible social worker, though, because I wouldn’t have had patience with my clients. So I never practiced.

Temkin: This was after the war?
MARK: During the war.  At that time I was a senior and we were allowed to take courses in the graduate school. They wanted us to get experience.

Temkin: Did you work?
MARK: Yes. I worked with my husband and my brother. We had a wholesale hardware company. What happened was in 1950 I broke my leg very badly and I was in a cast for five months. In order to give me something to do, my husband would come home at noon and I would go down to the office. That is how I got involved. I very seldom worked full-time.

Temkin: How many children did you have?
MARK: Three. 

Temkin: Will you tell me their names?
MARK: This is my second marriage. Their name is Fromer. Eileen, Martin and Jimmy. They all live in Portland.

Temkin: How many grandchildren do you have?
MARK: Four, two boys and two girls. The oldest is 24 and the youngest is 19.

Temkin: Do you see them a lot?
MARK: They are not here. One is in school in Arizona, one is at U of O. One grand daughter is traveling right now. She is going around the world for four months. One girl is here.

Temkin: In the previous interview you talked a lot about your mother and the kind of home that was. She kept a kosher kitchen and she didn’t ride on Yom Kippur. Did you continue that kind of life?
MARK: No. I always said I would never keep kosher. If someone wanted to marry me that wanted to keep kosher I would not do it.

Temkin: Why?
MARK: I just didn’t like it. I didn’t like the trouble.  My father wasn’t that kosher. He cheated.

Temkin: But outside the house.
MARK: Oh, of course. Never in the house.

Temkin: Did he eat bacon or ham?
MARK: No. But he did eat crab.

Temkin: So you didn’t keep a kosher kitchen. Did you give your children the same kind of Jewish education that you had?
MARK: Well they all went to Sunday school and were bar mitzvahed.

Temkin: Was your daughter bat mitzvahed as well?
MARK: No, in those days they didn’t bas mitzvah. She is 63 now, or 64.

Temkin: Did you go to synagogue with them?
MARK: With my children? Not too much.

Temkin: During the Holidays?
MARK: Of course during the Holidays.

Temkin: What synagogue did you belong to?
MARK: Oh that’s a long story.

Temkin: OK, don’t tell me.
MARK: No, I can tell you. We were members of Neveh Shalom, and very active. Then when they built the new building we were unhappy with certain things that they did. We didn’t know (this was with my first husband) and we didn’t know which way we wanted to go. So we joined both Shaarie Torah and Temple Beth Israel.  My mother went to Shaarie Torah. We stayed at Shaarie Torah until Rabbi Geller retired and we go exclusively to Temple now. One of my children still belongs to Shaarie Torah now – my youngest. And my daughter and my oldest son belong to P’nai Or, which is a Jewish Renewal one.

Temkin: I’m familiar with that because the curator at the museum, Anne Prahl is a member of P’nai Or. They just lost their rabbi recently.
MARK: I know, that was a tragedy, a tragedy.

Temkin: But you still go to Beth Israel?
MARK: Yes we do. We go for yartzeits and for the Holidays.

Temkin: I am amazed since I moved here that most of the people I’ve met here belong to a synagogue. That wasn’t true in L.A. at all. I never belonged to a synagogue.
MARK: It’s a different kind of community.

Temkin: You said something about reading Hebrew.
MARK: Yes, I can still read Hebrew.

Temkin: Do you understand any Hebrew?
MARK: Very little. I did go to Hebrew School but just for a couple of months. It was too far to go.

Temkin: You mentioned that your mother went to Israel when she was 72.  Have you ever been to Israel?
MARK: Yes, my first husband and I went in 1974. Right after the Yom Kippur war in 1973. We were going to go then. We were going to leave the day after Yom Kippur but of course, the war started so we went to Spain instead and the next year we went to Israel. I’ve only been there once.

Temkin: I was there in 1974 also, but I didn’t see you there. [laughs]
MARK: No! That was a wonderful trip but it was a very ignorant group of people, and I am not a snob.

Temkin: What do you mean by ignorant?
MARK: They just were not intelligent at all. There were two couple we became friendly with because we had a lot in common. The others we just sort of ignored. One woman on the bus said, “Why don’t they have big bridges in Israel like the Brooklyn Bridge?”  Now is that an intelligent question? [laughter]  And when we were driving down to Elat, which is all desert, some Bedouins were walking and someone asked, “Where are they going?”  That is the types they were.  But we did make wonderful friends with these two couples.

Temkin: Why haven’t you been back?
MARK: Well my present husband won’t go.  He is afraid. But we have done a lot of traveling, just not in Israel.

Temkin: How long have you been married?
MARK: We’ll be married 25 years in September. We both lost our mates. We were both widowed.

Temkin: You’ve been married a long time.
MARK: As you can see it worked out. 

Temkin: You talked a lot about your mother being very active in a number of different groups.
MARK: Yes, she was very active in the Jewish community.

Temkin: What about you?
MARK: I was when I was young. I was the vice president of Hadassah. I was editor of the bulletin for the Council of Jewish Women. My sister-in-law [Anne Berenson] was president at the time. I was on the board of the Jewish Family and Child Service and of the Robison Home.

Temkin: You were very active. You followed in your mother’s footsteps.
MARK: I was, yes. But in 1976 we bought a place in Palm Springs so we are gone six months out of the year. Then I stopped my activities. I’m  not involved with anything now. I’m not on any board.

Temkin: Are you involved in other ways without being on the board? Do you attend any meetings of Hadassah?
MARK: Not really. I’m a life member of Hadassah, Council of Jewish Women, Robison Home. It’s a good investment when you live as long as I have. [laughs]

Temkin: Do you have plans to go there?
MARK: One of my sons called me up and said, “Now if you get sick you will live with us.” I said, “No, I’m going to the Schnitz.” Those are my plans.

Temkin: Well I hope it never happens. You seem like you are in pretty good health.
MARK: Yes, except for my back.

Temkin: How old are you?
MARK: I am 85.

Temkin: Well you don’t look it.
MARK: Clean living.

Temkin: There are a lot of ladies from the Council of Jewish Women organizing the papers. I can’t remember their names. Rose is one.
MARK: Oh, Rose Rustin.

Temkin: Yes, I think she had a lot of these things in her garage for some time and now they are sorting them out. Anyway. You mentioned that you got your degree during the war. Did you get married during the war, too?
MARK: I got married during the war. My husband was discharged for health reasons. He had a bad stomach so he got out. We were married in 1944.

Temkin: Were you involved in volunteer activities during the war?
MARK: No, I was going to school.

Temkin: Were there a lot of women at the University of Washington in those days?
MARK: Oh yes. In those days it was 10,000 students. My oldest brother had been at University of Washington so that was where I always wanted to be.

Temkin: As opposed to Reed? Reed is a very good school.
MARK: I know. I knew more than the teachers did at Reed in the Social Studies department.

Temkin: Really! Why do you think that was?
MARK: Well Washington was more geared to that. Reed is more of a technology oriented school.

Temkin: When you were at the University of Washington, did you feel any antisemitism?
MARK: I’ve never felt any antisemitism.

Temkin: Now that’s not true. In the previous interview you said you hit somebody.
MARK: I beat her up. Virginia Ryan. That was the only time. But I was just a kid then. You said at the University of Washington.

Temkin: You are right. I just remember that you said, “I’ve never felt any antisemitism.” And then you talked about beating up this girl.
MARK: And she was bigger than me. She always used to hit me and this and that and I’d take it but she called me a ‘dirty Jew’ one day and I really gave it to her. 

Temkin: Did you remain friends with her after that?
MARK: No I didn’t. We grew up; she moved away.

Temkin: So that was an antisemitic thing as a kid.
MARK: Yes but I was just a kid.

Temkin: And never, ever after that?
MARK: No, I never did. But my friends were exclusively Jewish, really, throughout my life. So I just never felt it.

Temkin: You are very fortunate. People from your generation often have.
MARK: My kids have never mentioned it. I have never asked them.

Temkin: No, it’s not something you would necessarily talk about. Are you going to have a seder next week?
MARK: I always had it until about four years ago. I can’t do it anymore.

Temkin: Where are you going to do it?
MARK: My daughter’s house this year.

Temkin: Do your sons come too, with their families?
MARK: Oh yes, everybody. Our family is very close. I am lucky. My children all like each other.  

Temkin: Do the cousins like each other too?
MARK: The cousins are all completely different from each other. They have nothing in common.

Temkin: You have older brothers. You were much younger than they, right?
MARK: Yes, the one next to me was eleven when I was born.

Temkin: And they have all passed on?
MARK: Yes.

Temkin: I have a note here to ask about the Ramblers.
MARK: That was a club at the Jewish Community Center of young, Jewish men.

Temkin: Was there a women’s auxiliary?
MARK: No. Just men.

Temkin: Your first husband was involved in that? You used to attend?
MARK: Well they would have parties and we would go then. We wouldn’t go to their meetings. They met on Monday nights and there was a group of us played cards on Monday nights because of that.

Temkin: What cards did you play?
MARK: We played Mah Jongg or Pan?

Temkin: Do you still play?
MARK: Yes, and bridge.

Temkin: You must be pretty good by now. You have been doing it for a while. Are you a life master at bridge?
MARK: No. Do you know anything about duplicate? I have a theory about duplicate. My theory is that most of them have no other social life. A lot of them are losers.

Temkin: They go to bridge clubs many days a week.
MARK: Because they have to be accepted there. When I walked in I didn’t know anybody and they have to get you a partner and they are stuck with you. I know some very nice life masters, but I think the majority of them have a little problem.

Temkin: So you don’t play duplicate?
MARK: I have played duplicate. I have a few points. But I don’t seek it out.

Temkin: Tell me something about the parties that the Ramblers used to have. Were they wild parties?
MARK: No. They couldn’t have been that wild. They were big parties.

Temkin: Was there dancing?
MARK: Yes they danced, and drank. I have never been a drinker. I never enjoyed it. I don’t have anything against it.

Temkin: Did you smoke?
MARK: I tried smoking because I wanted to lose weight but I didn’t like it.

Temkin: I thought everybody in the ‘40s smoked.
MARK: I know! But I just didn’t like it.

Temkin: Did you dance?
MARK: Yes, but not now. And both of my husbands were wonderful dancers. I can’t dance anymore.  Gee, if I’d known you wanted to know about the Ramblers, I have some pictures from the Ramblers.

Temkin: I have seen some pictures at the museum of the Ramblers. If you have any stuff like that that you would like to give to the museum I will give you a card.
MARK: Do they want them?

Temkin: Oh yes. They have a big photography section. They have some pictures of the Ramblers.
MARK: There was also a group, which my husband didn’t belong to, similar to the Ramblers called the South Parkway Club. They met at the Neighborhood House.

Temkin: Yes, I have seen photos of them too. If you would like to give those up, and if you could identify on the back who the people were, they have a lot of photographs and sometimes they don’t know who the people are.  In fact, when I called you the other day I said Rosalie Goodman was there.  That is what she is doing there. She is looking at the photographs trying to get the people identified.
MARK: It is difficult.  Oh here, these aren’t Rambler pictures.

[Recording ends as they begin looking through photos]